Author Topic: Scrimmage kicki question  (Read 1498 times)

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Offline KDJBBBJ

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Scrimmage kicki question
« on: September 26, 2023, 06:24:23 PM »
4-8 on the K 30.  Snap goes over the head of the punter.
Ball rolling on the ground at the K 10.
 R closing in.
 K kicks the ball from off the ground into and through the end zone. 
What have you got?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2023, 06:32:10 PM »
4-8 on the K 30.  Snap goes over the head of the punter.
Ball rolling on the ground at the K 10.
 R closing in.
 K kicks the ball from off the ground into and through the end zone. 
What have you got?

Illegal kicking. Result of the play is a safety because K force put the ball in. If R accepts the penalty, we will play 4th down after enforcement from previous spot.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2023, 07:38:34 PM »
Illegal kicking. Result of the play is a safety because K force put the ball in. If R accepts the penalty, we will play 4th down after enforcement from previous spot.

 :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2023, 09:55:23 PM »
Illegal kicking. Result of the play is a safety because K force put the ball in. If R accepts the penalty, we will play 4th down after enforcement from previous spot.

Minor correction -- illegal kicking is still enforced from the spot of the foul, not the previous spot. Replay 4th down from the K5.

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I tried reading 10-4-4a again and it just gave me a headache in this scenario. I know the intent of the rule from the press release was that new previous spot enforcement had the exceptions of illegal batting, kicking and forward pass that were still enforced from the spot of the foul.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2023, 06:23:01 AM »
Minor correction -- illegal kicking is still enforced from the spot of the foul, not the previous spot. Replay 4th down from the K5.

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I tried reading 10-4-4a again and it just gave me a headache in this scenario. I know the intent of the rule from the press release was that new previous spot enforcement had the exceptions of illegal batting, kicking and forward pass that were still enforced from the spot of the foul.


Actually the snap is by rule a loose ball play and based on the changes as best as I can decipher the garbled wording the enforcement spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot.  As with other sections it would sure be nice if NFHS had an editorial review committee of officials to look this stuff over before printing the new rulebooks.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2023, 06:28:03 AM »
Minor correction -- illegal kicking is still enforced from the spot of the foul, not the previous spot. Replay 4th down from the K5.

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I tried reading 10-4-4a again and it just gave me a headache in this scenario. I know the intent of the rule from the press release was that new previous spot enforcement had the exceptions of illegal batting, kicking and forward pass that were still enforced from the spot of the foul.

I’m pretty sure my post is correct according to the new rule. Which points out another flaw in the new rule.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2023, 08:23:53 AM »
I’m pretty sure my post is correct according to the new rule. Which points out another flaw in the new rule.

The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:
a. Illegal batting or illegal kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run

We have loose ball play (the snap) where the ball is not actually possessed before it becomes dead. Where is the end of the related run? The only spot you can point to is the previous spot. Since the illegal kick occurred behind the end of the related run (previous spot), the foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2023, 11:24:30 AM »
The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:
a. Illegal batting or illegal kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run

We have loose ball play (the snap) where the ball is not actually possessed before it becomes dead. Where is the end of the related run? The only spot you can point to is the previous spot. Since the illegal kick occurred behind the end of the related run (previous spot), the foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.


There was no running play here it was a loose ball play.
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2023, 11:39:22 AM »

There was no running play here it was a loose ball play.

I swear I must be on candid camera or something here...

Case Play 10.4.2 Situation B Comment: When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone... even if several of these actions happen during the same down... the basic spot remains the sane, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick. (10-3-1 NOTE).

Yes, the rewriting of 10-4 absolutely mangled things up, but let's not pretend like we don't know what should be going on here -- the illegal kick retains the ABO style enforcement as we previously used. Basic spot is the previous spot, spot of the foul is behind the basic spot, therefore the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2023, 11:42:50 AM »
There is no ABO enforcement any longer and the rewritten rule, although a mess, is clear that this is a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot, and that the enforcement for this play is from the basic spot.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2023, 11:45:45 AM »
I swear I must be on candid camera or something here...

Case Play 10.4.2 Situation B Comment: When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone... even if several of these actions happen during the same down... the basic spot remains the sane, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick. (10-3-1 NOTE).

Yes, the rewriting of 10-4 absolutely mangled things up, but let's not pretend like we don't know what should be going on here -- the illegal kick retains the ABO style enforcement as we previously used. Basic spot is the previous spot, spot of the foul is behind the basic spot, therefore the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

What should be going on and what’s actually going on are not the same thing. It’s just like the play clock question. What makes sense and what the rule says are not the same.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2023, 11:49:54 AM »
I swear I must be on candid camera or something here...

Case Play 10.4.2 Situation B Comment: When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone... even if several of these actions happen during the same down... the basic spot remains the sane, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick. (10-3-1 NOTE).

Yes, the rewriting of 10-4 absolutely mangled things up, but let's not pretend like we don't know what should be going on here -- the illegal kick retains the ABO style enforcement as we previously used. Basic spot is the previous spot, spot of the foul is behind the basic spot, therefore the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

You are proving our point. Basic spot previous spot, not end of run because this is a loose ball play.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2023, 11:52:32 AM »
What should be going on and what’s actually going on are not the same thing. It’s just like the play clock question. What makes sense and what the rule says are not the same.

HOW???

From the press release back in February

Quote
In a move to achieve one of the committee’s fundamental tasks of maintaining a balance between offense and defense, this revision stipulates the basic spot for enforcement of fouls behind the line of scrimmage is the previous spot rather than the spot of the foul. Current penalties for illegal kicking, batting and participation fouls, as well as provisions for offensive fouls occurring in the end zone that may result in a safety, remain intact.

The intent of the rule change was to enforce most penalties from the previous spot in this scenario except for illegal kicking, batting and participation fouls which retain the ABO enforcement used previously.

Why are we insisting that the mangling of 10-4 means that we can't just do the right thing? Even in the new verbiage, 10-4-4a clearly states that illegal kicking gets enforced from the spot of the foul.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2023, 12:09:54 PM »
HOW???

From the press release back in February

The intent of the rule change was to enforce most penalties from the previous spot in this scenario except for illegal kicking, batting and participation fouls which retain the ABO enforcement used previously.

Why are we insisting that the mangling of 10-4 means that we can't just do the right thing? Even in the new verbiage, 10-4-4a clearly states that illegal kicking gets enforced from the spot of the foul.

How? Because of 10-4-2b. Also, for 10-4-4a to apply, the foul has to occur beyond the line of scrimmage, during a running play because that’s the only way we have end or run or related run connected to either illegal batting or kicking. Also in the original post we never had a end of the run because there was never an end of the run. The ball died while loose. It was a lose ball play.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2023, 12:31:49 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2023, 02:12:07 PM »
So are we just like deliberately misinterpreting the intent of the rule change to highlight the fact that 10-4 is screwed up? I must have missed that memo if that was the case.

I agree 10-4 is screwed up, but that doesn't mean we need to intentionally make things worse just out of spite. It's very clear from the initial press release what the rule should have been -- can we just do that, as we are for the rest of 10-4 and the whole succeeding spot nonsense?

I mean, we are being rational people about the whole succeeding spot nonsense, right?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2023, 02:33:01 PM »
So are we just like deliberately misinterpreting the intent of the rule change to highlight the fact that 10-4 is screwed up? I must have missed that memo if that was the case.

I agree 10-4 is screwed up, but that doesn't mean we need to intentionally make things worse just out of spite. It's very clear from the initial press release what the rule should have been -- can we just do that, as we are for the rest of 10-4 and the whole succeeding spot nonsense?

I mean, we are being rational people about the whole succeeding spot nonsense, right?

Hopefully we are being rational about the succeeding spot nonsense. Which is what making illegal kicking a spot foul beyond the line of scrimmage does.  But at the same time we also want to respect the wishes of the committee in wanting fouls behind the line by A to be enforced from the previous spot instead of the spot of the foul, don’t  we?

It’s also disingenuous to demand strict adherence to a rule like the play clock situation, and then in The same breath say it’s ok to ignore the clear rule in the very next thread. Plus, you can just invent an end of the run to be able to enforce a foul. You just completely fabricated a definition out of midair to try and make your position work. I will agree it’s a mess.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2023, 03:27:55 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2023, 03:26:55 PM »
 :thumbup
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2023, 08:48:18 PM »
Hopefully we are being rational about the succeeding spot nonsense. Which is what making illegal kicking a spot foul beyond the line of scrimmage does.  But at the same time we also want to respect the wishes of the committee in wanting fouls behind the line by A to be enforced from the previous spot instead of the spot of the foul, don’t  we?

The intent of the rule committee seems clear in both cases. As noted in the press release, "Current penalties for illegal kicking, [...] remain intact." This sounds like their intent was to NOT change how this penalty was enforced.

In that same breath, the 2022 rule change press release states "The committee edited the EXCEPTIONS to Rule 3-6-1a(1)e, which clarify the necessary conditions for an abbreviated 25-second play clock after a stoppage in play. This rule now includes an exception for Rule 3-5-7i, mandating that a 40-second play clock be employed following a foul committed only by the defensive team.". This is not listed with an exception to the exception. The rules committee stated if the defensive team commits a foul, the play clock is set to 40 seconds.

Both of these cases seem pretty clear as to the intent of the rule changes. The fact that the editorial committee mangled it up in both cases doesn't change the clear and straightforward intent of the rules committee. We very often enforce the rules by intent and philosophy rather than by the letter, and especially in the current state of 10-4, I think we really need not to get lost in the wording of the rule and miss the intent.

And, honestly, if Ralph feels like stepping in and backing me up in either/both of these cases I would greatly appreciate it -- otherwise I feel like I'm going mad here.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2023, 09:26:11 PM »
I asked chat gpt this question just to see what it would come up with.   It first came up with this:

Since the Kicker (K) kicked the ball through the end zone, it is considered a touchback.
The ball is placed at the receiving team's 20-yard line (the standard starting position after a touchback).
So, in this scenario, the R team would take possession of the ball at their own 20-yard line after the touchback.


then I clarified that K kicked the ball through their own endzone and it said this:

The R team is awarded 2 points for the safety.
The K team must kick the ball to the R team from their own 20-yard line by executing a free kick (kickoff) after the safety.
So, the R team would be awarded 2 points, and the K team would kick off to the R team from their own 20-yard line.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2023, 09:38:27 PM »
X
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 07:11:26 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2023, 07:18:13 AM »
The intent of the rule committee seems clear in both cases. As noted in the press release, "Current penalties for illegal kicking, [...] remain intact." This sounds like their intent was to NOT change how this penalty was enforced.


The penalty (read YARDAGE) and the ENFORCEMENT are 2 totally different things. 
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2023, 07:54:56 AM »

The penalty (read YARDAGE) and the ENFORCEMENT are 2 totally different things.

Did the rule change for 10-4 change the yardage penalties for anything else, or was it about changing the enforcement procedures?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2023, 08:29:45 AM »
Did the rule change for 10-4 change the yardage penalties for anything else, or was it about changing the enforcement procedures?
If you can convince me to use the previous spot as the end of the run for enforcement of this loose ball foul, I'm with you. I just can't get there.

Offline mhez141

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2023, 08:35:17 AM »
I am posting this as do not know if Redding's had the new ruling before printing.  Redding's page 68 Example 6-52 states penalty is enforced from spot of foul.  The only difference is the punter "muffs" the snap.   FlAg1

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Scrimmage kicki question
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2023, 10:40:11 AM »
The intent of the rule committee seems clear in both cases. As noted in the press release, "Current penalties for illegal kicking, [...] remain intact." This sounds like their intent was to NOT change how this penalty was enforced.

In that same breath, the 2022 rule change press release states "The committee edited the EXCEPTIONS to Rule 3-6-1a(1)e, which clarify the necessary conditions for an abbreviated 25-second play clock after a stoppage in play. This rule now includes an exception for Rule 3-5-7i, mandating that a 40-second play clock be employed following a foul committed only by the defensive team.". This is not listed with an exception to the exception. The rules committee stated if the defensive team commits a foul, the play clock is set to 40 seconds.

Both of these cases seem pretty clear as to the intent of the rule changes. The fact that the editorial committee mangled it up in both cases doesn't change the clear and straightforward intent of the rules committee. We very often enforce the rules by intent and philosophy rather than by the letter, and especially in the current state of 10-4, I think we really need not to get lost in the wording of the rule and miss the intent.

And, honestly, if Ralph feels like stepping in and backing me up in either/both of these cases I would greatly appreciate it -- otherwise I feel like I'm going mad here.

Yeah, you're right. I remember the discussion about fouls against a player versus fouls against the ball. This is clearly a foul against the ball, and should be enforced from the spot of the foul instead of the previous spot. Thanks for sticking to your guns. I appreciate you.