Author Topic: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp  (Read 1959 times)

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Offline dammitbobby

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Offline TXMike

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2023, 12:15:44 PM »
I don’t know who his source(s) is/are but you can all contact your Chapter leaders and Dist Directors to see how non-credible the source(s) is/are.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2023, 12:27:01 PM »
https://twitter.com/Matt_Stepp817/status/1623523103472078850?s=20&t=iMG4BJBB3O3ApGJH5gmKxQ

Couple of points:

If the information isn't credible, maybe it should be in order to eliminate a journalist from having an influence on who the coaches select???

Solicitation rules are intended to stop officials from cozying up to coaches, does it stop them from doing the same with media?

What is inaccurate about his information, are the proposals available anywhere for members to see?

Offline TXMike

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2023, 12:47:55 PM »
If there was a "TASO proposal" , your Chapter leadership and Dist Director would know about it since they met this past weekend.  Maybe someone has been watching online discussions and believe those discussions are "proposals".  We throw ideas around all the time in the various places we interact, like this site for one.  Just because one of us throws a suggestion out there , does not make it a proposal.  Just like the mechanics things we throw around.  The ideas are not "proposals" until the organization has had a chance to evaluate them, discuss with our partners where needed, and then allow organization leadership (or even the organization in some cases) to judge whether the idea should be a "proposal."  I have no idea who the journalist communicated with.  Maybe it is not even any of our members.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2023, 01:10:11 PM »
OK, and this is my fault, we're really talking multiple issues here.  Let's ignore the proposal piece for now. 

Shouldn't TASO have a mechanism/policy/something in place to prevent a journalist from being able to influence coaches picks, or a crew pushing third-party relationships to try to attract assignments?  Is TASO OK with this???


Offline TXMike

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2023, 01:50:34 PM »
OK, and this is my fault, we're really talking multiple issues here.  Let's ignore the proposal piece for now. 

Shouldn't TASO have a mechanism/policy/something in place to prevent a journalist from being able to influence coaches picks, or a crew pushing third-party relationships to try to attract assignments?  Is TASO OK with this???
  I can't speak for the Association but I doubt they can (or want to) influence or try to control what a journalist researches or writes about.  And TASO policies already address someone trying to obtain officiating assignments.  The Association has built strong relationships with the partners at the top of TAPPS, UIL, and THSCA.  I would expect any "proposal" as significant as what the journalist wrote about would be thoroughly coordinated with all of them as an idea before it would be proposed.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2023, 02:05:21 PM »
OK, and this is my fault, we're really talking multiple issues here.  Let's ignore the proposal piece for now. 

Shouldn't TASO have a mechanism/policy/something in place to prevent a journalist from being able to influence coaches picks, or a crew pushing third-party relationships to try to attract assignments?  Is TASO OK with this???

The only way to prevent that is to totally take coaches out of the equation.  There are some areas in the state where I don't expect this journalist to travel to, so those crews are left off of his recommendations to the coaches. 

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2023, 02:10:11 PM »
I don't think the TASO solicitation policy covers this.

An individual member SHALL NOT:   

1. Influence, request or communicate, directly or indirectly (except to confirm game/match time or location by email only), with a coach, athletic director, assigning authority or an athletic governing body to enhance the opportunity for ones’ assignments in contest which are assigned by any TASO Chapter.   

2. Give, accept or exchange any gift, favor or thing of monetary value or personal gain for possible assignment of any official to a game/match.
   
3. Discredit the ability or performance or criticize the assignment of another official or team of officials to gain the opportunity of assignment for his/her self or another member. 

4. An individual member, or chapter designated representative, SHALL NOT criticize or censure the ability, performance or assignment of another chapter. 

It says you can't solicit a coach, AD, assigning authority, or athletic governing body; nothing about anyone else who might hold sway over coaches.  Perhaps this would be a good amendment to the policy:

1. Influence, request or communicate, directly or indirectly (except to confirm game/match time or location by email only), with a coach, athletic director, assigning authority, an athletic governing body, or any other person or entity to enhance the opportunity for ones’ assignments in contest which are assigned by any TASO Chapter.   

Or... 

1.  No official shall through their actions, either directly or indirectly, attempt to influence, request or communicate, or otherwise impact or have any effect on any aspect of a coach's selection of officials.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2023, 02:16:26 PM »
The only way to prevent that is to totally take coaches out of the equation.  There are some areas in the state where I don't expect this journalist to travel to, so those crews are left off of his recommendations to the coaches.

100% on board with this.  I've yet to hear anyone give a rational, logical argument as to why allowing coaches to pick is a good thing.

('This is the way it's always been' and it'll never change' and 'good crews shouldn't be punished' and 'if a coach doesn't like a crew they won't get picked again' are fallacy arguments and therefore irrelevant.)

Offline Etref

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2023, 11:08:51 AM »
Well, the way I see it is
Ones that consistently work Championship games will be against it
Ones that have never worked a Championship game will be for it

Human nature!
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline DieHardCubFan

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2023, 07:14:36 PM »
The only way to prevent that is to totally take coaches out of the equation.  There are some areas in the state where I don't expect this journalist to travel to, so those crews are left off of his recommendations to the coaches.

Before everyone attacks me for asking this, I simply want to see why folks are so against coaches (who are the only ones involved in the game process who do the job full-time) being the individual(s) making the decision(s) on what officiating crews work their games, whether it be regular season playoffs. 

I will say upfront, that I have been an official since 2005 and have never worked a state championship. I (or rather the crew I am fortunate to be a part of) have, however, worked a quarterfinal game four of the last six seasons.

O.K., let me have it...

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2023, 08:29:58 PM »
I don't think anyone will attack you for asking that question. In fact, I want to genuinely hear rational, valid arguments that support it - I'm always open to changing my mind, when presented with different facts and perspectives.

But, let me counter that question by asking this one:  what qualifies a coach to be a good judge of officials?  Most 3rd year officials have a more through understanding of the rules than most coaches (IMO), and coaches have next zero knowledge of mechanics.  They have no objective lens to look through, nor any even defined criteria as to what makes a crew championship worthy.  In a quarterfinal game this year, two DPIs were marked off incorrectly as spot fouls (I think one was marked off as 26 yard DPI, in a fairly close game).  Didn't see the coach on the short end of the stick screaming at the R, on either occasion, as far as I know - most coaches would be besides themselves with a mistake like that going against them, in those circumstances.

I'll acknowledge you have a valid point: they are the only ones involved in the game process who do the job full time. That is an an element that I have not considered.

That said, I just don't see how it benefits, as opposed to harms, officials, and officiating in general, to have coaches pick crews.  I can't think of any other football level, or other sport in general, at any level, that thinks allowing coaches to pick the judge and jury for their games, is a good thing, for the game.

The other, more ugly reason, is that while we all want to say we are a noble and honorable sort of folk, the reality is that we are not all that way, and solicitation absolutely is a thing.    I have personally heard officials brag about their crew reaching out to a coach they were friendly with to make sure they got a certain game on a certain week, during their draft. And solicitation is enabled 100% by allowing coaches to pick.

Lastly - it does have to do with 'spreading the wealth' around.  Every single chapter has crews that are capable, and deserving, or working quarter and above, including championships.  The El Paso Chapter this year, had at least 4-5 playoff games in their backyard - and they received zero playoff assignments. Not a single one, at any round.  In a chapter with  over 200 members.  A handful of other chapters got completely blanked as well.  Why would someone want to work hard, hone their craft, only to be systematically excluded from the sport’s biggest stage? (And don’t do yourself a disservice by saying officials do it for the kids – if that was the case, we’d all work for free (as would coaches) and how many coaches would stick around, year after year, knowing that regardless of the time and effort and sacrifices made, they would be excluded from the playoffs, or championship games?) 

I simply don't understand why some don't want to have a system to give everyone an equal shot to work championship games.  I'm in a small chapter (7th smallest, which edged out the three directly below by a total of 4 people), and I'm resigned to the fact that under the current system, the odds of me ever, in my career, working a championship game are virtually nonexistent.  And yes, I would likely benefit from a change, so yes, I am biased.  But even if I don't ever call a championship game, I hope that the advocacy I bring helps other officials in small chapters have the same opportunities and chances as the large metro chapters.

//off soapbox//

Online ElvisLives

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2023, 09:34:28 PM »
Cub Fan,
The BIGGEST reason is that coaches (who are not also trained and experienced officials) have NO qualification for judging the ability of sports officials. Their knowledge of rules, philosophies, and officiating mechanics is next to nothing. This is no different than if the general public was allowed to select the patrol officers that would be on duty at a particular place and time. I don't believe there is a civilized society on the planet that allows that. The potential for conflict of interest is mind boggling. And the average citizen knows no more about state and local laws than they do about football rules/philosophies/mechanics.
If coaches selecting officials was a good idea, they would be doing it in the NFL and NCAA. They aren't. And they never will.
The argument about coaching being their full-time job is just smoke screen garbage. NFL officials are relatively well paid, but they are NOT full-time employees. But, the amount of time they invest in this avocation year-round easily equals a full-time job. I can testify that even NCAA FBS football approaches having a second full-time job. Full-time employment equals 2080 annual hours. I kept track one year, and I spent over 1500 hours in study, review, travel, meetings, training, etc. All on top of my full-time civilian employment. No. I don't put in that many hours for HS football, but it is still a lot. I will tell you that the vast majority (maybe not all, but a vast majority) of TASO officials take this job very seriously, and only interested in doing it right and well. So this "full time" argument is just garbage. If they want full-time officials, then pony up and pay us a full-time wage. I'll be first in line.
As to why Texas HS coaches are allowed to select officials, that pre-dates even me. I can't say when or exactly how that happened. But, that is the policy of the University Interscholastic League (UIL), the governing body for all public school competition in Texas. The UIL is a sub-division of the University of Texas. As such, it is a governmental sub-division. The UIL was established long before there was any form of organized officiating group in Texas. TASO, the officiating organization in Texas, is a voluntary organization, i.e., not a union (unions not recognized in Texas). We try to maintain a good relationship with the UIL, but our political clout is very minimal with them. For the UIL to voluntarily relinquish officiating assignment authority is about 1,000 times less likely than me winning the lottery jackpot. TASO's only other avenue to achieve assignment independence would be action by the Texas Legislature (since the UIL is a governmental sub-division). I can't find this breakdown, but I have no doubt the legislature is composed of a majority of UT grads, and they ain't about to vote for anything that would reduce the power of UT (even as minor as this is, in the grand scheme of Texas politics and life). And that would be IF you could even find a legislator to take ANY interest in this issue, considering they have border security, oil and gas issues, water issues, agriculture, school funding and curriculum issues, etc., etc., etc., to deal with. HS sports officials would rank below lint between their toes.
If you were a cotton farmer, would you want the guy that makes the selection of who's cotton to buy be a guy whose only qualification to select cotton is that he wears denim jeans occasionally?  It is about the same concept.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2023, 10:00:48 PM »
As Elvis alluded to, imagine getting arrested and being able to hand pick your judge and jury.  I would be looking for some who I felt would let me be free.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2023, 11:30:16 AM »
For the UIL to voluntarily relinquish officiating assignment authority is about 1,000 times less likely than me winning the lottery jackpot. TASO's only other avenue to achieve assignment independence would be action by the Texas Legislature (since the UIL is a governmental sub-division).

You're not wrong.  But, there are ways that TASO can shape the selection process, by proposals similar to the above (limiting officials to one championship every other season). 

'Sorry coach, by TASO rules that official/crew isn't eligible to call your game, you'll have to pick a different chapter/crew.'

That allows TASO to have influence over the process, without actually making changes on the UIL/coaches picking side of the equation.  TASO could also tell coaches that their interpretation of the rule that 'officials must be mutually agreed' extends only to the chapter level, not individuals.

Bottom line is, there are multiple things similar to the above that can be done to minimize the impact and influence of coaches picks - whether or not TASO likes the process as is, or wants to try to expand opportunities for its members, remains to be seen.


Offline JDM

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2023, 11:55:01 AM »
I don’t know who his source(s) is/are but you can all contact your Chapter leaders and Dist Directors to see how non-credible the source(s) is/are.

 :thumbup

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2023, 06:27:40 AM »
Well, the way I see it is
Ones that consistently work Championship games will be against it
Ones that have never worked a Championship game will be for it

Human nature!

I'm trying not to be a Mainer telling Texans what to do, but several years ago we adopted the following criteria.....

You can only work a state championship  every other year.
IF you are assigned a state  championship game you won't get a regional championship.
IF you worked a Friday night game you won't be assigned a Saturday game unless no one else is availabe.
Coach imput has been reduced to two 'black-balls' for assigning.

Our assignments are made on an individual , not a crew, basis and for state championship games our 4 chapter assignors gather. Each chapter is allocated a ratio of slots depending on their number of schools they service. 6 state games X 7 man crews = 42 game officials from a reduced pool of under 200. Retention of younger officials seems to improve as their goal of working a state game is more in their reach. Seem to work for us.

......doesn't mean that it'll work for y'all  :sTiR:
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 06:29:28 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2023, 09:36:20 AM »
Here's how Texas could adopt a similar model:

I'm trying not to be a Mainer telling Texans what to do, but several years ago we adopted the following criteria.....

You can only work a state championship  every other year.  This would work for us.
IF you are assigned a state  championship game you won't get a regional championship.  Change to 'If you are assigned a semifinal you won't get a a championship.'
IF you worked a Friday night game you won't be assigned a Saturday game unless no one else is available.  Not sure this is feasible, particularly for Houston (and maybe other) chapters... I know they have some crews working Thur-Fri-Sat... don't know if they have enough crews to 'spread around' the games... and a moot point with coaches drafting crews as it is today, unless they are told no.  Which is not likely, since crews want to curry favor with coaches for plum assignments.
Coach imput has been reduced to two 'black-balls' for assigning. Would work for us.  (two for season?) 

Our assignments are made on an individual , not a crew, basis and for state championship games our 4 chapter assignors gather. Each chapter is allocated a ratio of slots depending on their number of schools they service. 6 state games X 7 man crews = 42 game officials from a reduced pool of under 200. Retention of younger officials seems to improve as their goal of working a state game is more in their reach. Seem to work for us.

For us, based on sheer size, we can't select individuals (over 5800 officials), but ideally, we could assign championship games to a chapter, on a rotating basis.  Larger metro chapters could get 2, maybe3 slots/year, with the smaller chapters rotating for the rest.  This however would require UIL or TASO to make the actual assignments, which is extremely unlikely.  Alternatively, they keep the coaches picks, and TASO shapes selection by having qualification criteria (as I suggested above.)

......doesn't mean that it'll work for y'all  :sTiR:

Doesn't mean it can't!

Offline drilsgt_98

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2023, 06:34:19 PM »
IMHO...Regardless of the system/process used to select officials for any game, you will never remove the cloud of favoritism, collusion, or outright solicitation. Just because you rotate games between chapters doesn't mean the same crew from that chapter won't get the game when it's their turn. My only point is.....regardless of the process, someone will feel slighted.
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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2023, 09:43:49 PM »
Sure, there is no perfect system.  But if we have to have an imperfect system, but for me personally, much like the government, things tend to be much better when authority/ability/decision making is pushed to the lowest levels of government, instead of being dictated at the top.  There will always be political elements to this, but officials in smaller chapters can navigate and work the system at the chapter level much, much easier than at the state/coaches level.

Refusing to evolve, improve, and mature processes because a better (different) system will still be imperfect, is a recipe for apathy and indifference, and that is now what we need at any level.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2023, 06:04:07 PM »
Does the UIL policy actually dictate coaches pick or that the officials must be mutually agreed upon? I one chapter I’m familiar with, there are no coaches picks in the regular season. Chapter assigned crews.


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Offline Etref

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2023, 07:47:46 AM »
No! Coaches can have a scratch for crew if or official. My opinion is chapters have morphed into allowing drafts of crews or allowing coaches too much authority in choosing.
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2023, 08:11:13 AM »
Does the UIL policy actually dictate coaches pick or that the officials must be mutually agreed upon? I one chapter I’m familiar with, there are no coaches picks in the regular season. Chapter assigned crews.


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https://www.uiltexas.org/policy/constitution/athletics/officials

(a) AGREEMENT.
All officials must be satisfactory to both parties and agreed upon in advance. However, beginning a game with an official constitutes agreement.

...one sentence.  That's it.




Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: TASO proposal to limit officials posted by Matt Stepp
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2023, 08:17:13 AM »
From what I'm aware of, most 'black-balls'  (each coach has 2) are of a personal nature : "Ref works at our school" , "Ref's kid is our QB", "Ref is  dating my ex-wife"," I'm  dating ref's ex-wife" an so on. Often these are echoed by the official on his 'don't send me to...' list. Sadly, some ability 'black-balls' such as : "Sleeps with his eyes open", "too flag-happy" ,etc ; I silently would agree with.

NOTE : I'm a Mainer, where football season competes with soccer season, field hockey seasonm, cross-country season, golf season, hunting season, fishing season, ATV racing and crushing a beer can on one's forehead. I once heard a UTexas coach say : "Down here we have two sports...football, and spring football."
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 08:29:38 AM by Ralph Damren »