High School Inadverten Signal

[A10LJ]

Is there such a thing as an "inadvertant signal" in high school?    I see there is reference to an inadvertant whistle but does the NF book reference an inadvertant signal?   Thanks in advance!!!

[footballjeff232]

the referee holds one arm out straight with a closed fist. That is the HS inadvertent whistle signal.

[waltjp]

There is no inadvertent signal in FED.

[HLinNC]

Try looking at S12 Walt.

[GoGoGo]

footballjeff is correct

[Atlanta Blue]

I don't think he's talking about the signal FOR an inadvertant whistle, I think he means is there such a thing as an "inadvertant signal".

EXAMPLE:  Ball thrown into the end zone, caught by the defense.  Without blowing a whistle, LJ raises his arm and signals touchback.  Except the DB that caught the ball runs it out of the end zone and goes 104 yards for a TD.  Did the signal of touchback kill the ball?

or

Same situation, ball thrown into the end zone, DB intercepts, LJ, thinking it was the WR that caught it, throws up his hands for a TD.  Since he is wearing a finger whistle, he isn't blowing it.  DB runs for 104 yards.  Did the TD signal kill the play?

[A10LJ]

Atlanta Blue, you are correct.  I want to know if the LJ signals inadvertantely without blowing his whistle can we replay the down as if he BLEW his whistle?  Thanks in advance.

[LarryW60]

Signals don't kill a play and for the most part whistles don't kill the play either (except for IWs).  A signal of a touchdown/touchback/safety indicate something that already happened to kill the play.  If a touchback is incorrectly signalled (i.e. the play isn't dead yet) and the player runs back into the field of play, I'm thinking we should let the play continue.

[Atlanta Blue]

Signals don't kill a play and for the most part whistles don't kill the play either (except for IWs).  A signal of a touchdown/touchback/safety indicate something that already happened to kill the play.  If a touchback is incorrectly signalled (i.e. the play isn't dead yet) and the player runs back into the field of play, I'm thinking we should let the play continue.

But suppose the players react to your signal?

[LarryW60]

Well, in the case of an apparent touchback, the runner is probably not going to try and run it out if there are defenders able to stop him right there.  Also, any defenders would be concentrating on the player with the ball, not an official on a sideline.  Defenders near the runner would never see the official and those farther away would have ample time to react to the runner's continued play.  If I was a coach and had a player on my team stop pursuing because of a hand signal an official gave, my first thing would be to get in the player's face and "ask" (in a calm, collected manner, of course) why is he watching the officials instead of the ball carrier?
 

[busman]

I think that is way to simplisitic.  I promise you will have a coach who saw the touchback signal.  I think if questioned, this is one you have to eat.  Just like a baseball umpire signalling a foul ball on a ball clearly fair, or a softball umpire raising his hand to call timeout and then the infielder misses the cutoff and the ball goes through a hole in the fence.  It's a bell that can't be unrung.

[AlUpstateNY]

But suppose the players react to your signal?

Sorry, the official made a mistake and anybody who reacted to the signal was wrong in doing so.  The official may have to suffer the consequences of his error, be it whining immediately after the fact or some sort of reprimand after the game, but play goes on.  Whistle is a different matter, with a whole different set of remedies.

[A10LJ]

Here is the play.   A has the ball, they are down by 2 points.   Last play of the game.  A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground.   LJ signals an incomplete pass.   No whistle.  B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD.  Time expires.   What should be the correct ruling?

[busman]

You've got an incomplete pass. If time expired, game over.

[LarryW60]

I think that is way to simplisitic.  I promise you will have a coach who saw the touchback signal.  I think if questioned, this is one you have to eat.  Just like a baseball umpire signalling a foul ball on a ball clearly fair, or a softball umpire raising his hand to call timeout and then the infielder misses the cutoff and the ball goes through a hole in the fence.  It's a bell that can't be unrung.

Why would I care if a coach saw the inapplicable touchback signal?  They're not on the field and what they see has ZERO effect on the play in progress.  If a coach complains, my sole response would be, "Coach, was the ball dead by rule in the endzone?"

For those that want to parallel this with IW's, the ball IS dead by rule when an IW happens.

[VALinesman]

Here is the play.   A has the ball, they are down by 2 points.   Last play of the game.  A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground.   LJ signals an incomplete pass.   No whistle.  B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD.  Time expires.   What should be the correct ruling?

That is not an 'inadvertant signal' -- that is a blown call. To me, 'inadvertant signal' is just a nicer way of saying 'I really blew that one'.

[LarryW60]

Here is the play.   A has the ball, they are down by 2 points.   Last play of the game.  A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground.   LJ signals an incomplete pass.   No whistle.  B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD.  Time expires.   What should be the correct ruling?

You mean besides grilling the LJ as to why he would worry about giving an incomplete signal before whistling the play dead?  Every official I know whistles on an incomplete pass, THEN gives a signal.

No whistles and the ball is not dead BY RULE so the play continues.  If you want to start making up your own rules, you need to start a new league.

[A10LJ]

just asking the question so I can get help with the correct ruling.  So NFHS rules done have an inadvertant signal?

[LarryW60]

Nope.  The only thing inadvertant in the NFHS is an IW.

Oh.  And the horrible wording on some of the rules.

[Atlanta Blue]

For those of you that always want to throw out 1-1-6, this may be the time to do it.  The official made a call to which at least some players reacted and stopped playing.  How can you, in equity, now say, "Sorry, that call doesn't matter."

The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The ref -
eree’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

The referee decided that the "inadvertant signal" caused play to stop, even though there was no inadvertant whistle.  In the spirit of good sportsmanship, the referee decides to treat the inadvertant signal the same way he would treat an inadvertant whistle.

[busman]

I'm sorry, but if you give an incomplete pass signal or a touchback signal, even if it's wrong, you've got to live with it.  That is the only equitable thing to do.

[NoVaBJ]

Here is the play.   A has the ball, they are down by 2 points.   Last play of the game.  A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground.   LJ signals an incomplete pass.   No whistle.  B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD.  Time expires.   What should be the correct ruling?

Touchdown for A; end of game unless point differential is a playoff factor, in which case the game ends after the try.

[NoVaBJ]

I'm sorry, but if you give an incomplete pass signal or a touchback signal, even if it's wrong, you've got to live with it.  That is the only equitable thing to do.

Oh, no doubt the giver of an incorrect signal will catch hell, and deservedly so.  But by rule, the the giver should catch hell for misinforming the players, not for killing the play.  In the absence of a whistle, game on.  And I would suggest that a whistle would only compound the error.

[LarryW60]

Ugh.  I'd hate to be on a crew where the referee brought out the "God Rule" for something like this.  We'd see it brought out for all sorts of little things, then.

We give coaches grief for telling their players to "play until the whistle" because when the ball is dead by rule, THAT is when they need to stop playing.  In this case we don't have the ball dead by rule and don't have a whistle, yet now we have a coach arguing that his players should stop playing when an official gives a hand signal because hand signals carry the same weight as a whistle in causing a live ball to become dead.

Sorry, not buying it.

[bama_stripes]

I talked with a couple of my crew members about this play, and it's really not an easy decision.

As the R, if I saw a wing give an incomplete pass signal (but no whistle), and I saw players pull up as a result of that signal, I'd likely be blowing MY whistle.  I'd figure that my wing had dropped his whistle, and the play should have been blown dead.

Upon questioning the wing, I'd find out that:

(a) He ruled incomplete, and either forgot to blow his whistle, or it dropped out of his mouth. The game would be over, and we'd have to live with his (probably erroneous) judgment.

or

(b)  He ruled a backward pass, and mistakenly gave the incomplete pass signal instead of a punch-back.  Since I would have blown my whistle, we'd have an IW and administer it using the rule in place.