Three plays from yesterday’s youth football games

[NVFOA_Ump]

Here's three plays from yesterday’s youth football games where the coaches advised us of the "correct" results: 

1. 4th & 15 at the A-35.  A21 is running a sweep and is pushed OB at the A-40 where B51 lays a hit on him well OB. We've got a flag for UNR What’s the resulting enforcement?

2. 4th & 15 at the A-35.  A21 is running a sweep and is pushed OB at the A-40 where B51 grabs the back collar of his shoulder pads and immediately pulls him down backwards to the ground while both players are clearly OB. We've got a flag down.  What’s the resulting enforcement?

3. 4th & 15 at the A-35.  A is in scrimmage kick formation and the kick is partially blocked by B at the NZ. The loose ball then bounces off of the back of B56 at the A-40 and is immediately recovered by A at the A-42 well short of the line to gain. What do we have?

[ilyazhito]

In both 1 and 2, the ball is dead because A failed to reach the lined to gain. This means that B will have 1/10 15 yards from the succeeding spot after enforcement of the UNR or the HCT.

In 3, the result of the play is K 1/10 from the K-40. The ball touched  R beyond the expanded neutral zone, so K is legally allowed to recover and possess the ball. K may not advance, because the kick did not end, but they do have legal possession, so it will be a new series for K with the game clock starting on the snap (3-4-2-a,3-4-3-c).

[ncwingman]

Agree on all counts.

If I can put my nitpicker hat on and pick one nit though... Horse collar tackles are always live ball fouls. Ergo, if the player is clearly out of bounds and the ball is dead prior to the "tackle", it would only be a DBPF (Late hit/UNR, take your pick) and effectively the exact same situation as #1.

If you found a youth league coach that knows that and tries to make that argument, they'd probably also not be yelling about the dead ball fouls giving them a first down in that situation either.

[Ralph Damren]

In #3, a tricky senerio occurrs if touched beyond the LOS by R and bounces back behind the LOS (remember footballs aren't round) where K gains possession. K can now advance and will; have a new series once the play ends. If the blocked kick is recovered by K , they need to advance to the line-to-gain for a new series.

U & HL NEED TO BE SURE KICK GOES BEYOND LOS 

[NVFOA_Ump]

4th & 15 at the A-35.  A21 is running a sweep and is pushed OB at the A-40 where B51 grabs the back collar of his shoulder pads and immediately pulls him down backwards to the ground while both players are clearly OB. We've got a flag down.  What’s the resulting enforcement?

Not to beat a dead horse here but given the following IMHO it is not possible to have a horse-collar call if the ball is OB and the play whistled dead.  This would have to be flagged as a DB-PF UNR in my read of these NFHS rule references?


1.  The horse-collar rule:  9.4.3.k - Grab the inside back or side collar, or the nameplate area (directly below the back collar), of either the shoulder pads or the jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar), even if possession is lost. The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul.

2.  The primary applicable definition:  2.32.13 … A runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball or is simulating possession of a live ball.

Given my opinion does the last sentence "The horse collar foul is enforced as a live ball foul." have any impact here on this play?  Other opinions?

[Ralph Damren]

I say that some dead ball fouls  impersonate  'live ball fouls', such as 15 face mask, clipping, and HORSE-COLLAR.The run ended after the runner went OOB, so the dead ball foul would be enforced after the play was over.

POSSIBLE EXPLAINATION TO COACH : "Coach, your play didn't gain first down. AFTER your play ended the foul occurred,so the ball belongs to your opponents and the penalty will be enforced appropriately.".

[ncwingman]

Not to beat a dead horse here but given the following IMHO it is not possible to have a horse-collar call if the ball is OB and the play whistled dead.  This would have to be flagged as a DB-PF UNR in my read of these NFHS rule references?


1.  The horse-collar rule:  9.4.3.k - Grab the inside back or side collar, or the nameplate area (directly below the back collar), of either the shoulder pads or the jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar), even if possession is lost. The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul.

2.  The primary applicable definition:  2.32.13 … A runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball or is simulating possession of a live ball.

Given my opinion does the last sentence "The horse collar foul is enforced as a live ball foul." have any impact here on this play?  Other opinions?

I agree, as noted above, but think it's rather moot practically speaking. The decleating, backwards pull of the horse-collar action is a dangerous play that should be penalized as a personal foul whenever it occurs. A player shouldn't get a pass on it because he horse-collared a non-runner or because the ball was already dead. If it's not against the runner or a dead ball foul, it would be unnecessary roughness and a foul under 9-4-3g instead of 9-4-3k.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I agree, as noted above, but think it's rather moot practically speaking. The decleating, backwards pull of the horse-collar action is a dangerous play that should be penalized as a personal foul whenever it occurs. A player shouldn't get a pass on it because he horse-collared a non-runner or because the ball was already dead. If it's not against the runner or a dead ball foul, it would be unnecessary roughness and a foul under 9-4-3g instead of 9-4-3k.

Agreed that this should be a DB-UNR foul with succeeding spot enforcement.  In this case since it was on a 4th down play in which A failed to make the line to gain it would enforced from the DB spot 15 yards with a 1st & 10 for B.

[ilyazhito]

In #3, a tricky senerio occurrs if touched beyond the LOS by R and bounces back behind the LOS (remember footballs aren't round) where K gains possession. K can now advance and will; have a new series once the play ends. If the blocked kick is recovered by K , they need to advance to the line-to-gain for a new series.

U & HL NEED TO BE SURE KICK GOES BEYOND LOS 

That makes sense. If the ball was recovered at the A34, A would have to advance the ball beyond the line to gain for the 1st down.

However, in the OP, A recovers the ball in advance of the neutral zone. This means that A can legally recover the ball, but not advance. A is also legally allowed to possess the ball because the ball touched B beyond the neutral zone.

[refjeff]

Not to beat a dead horse here but given the following IMHO it is not possible to have a horse-collar call if the ball is OB and the play whistled dead.  This would have to be flagged as a DB-PF UNR in my read of these NFHS rule references?


1.  The horse-collar rule:  9.4.3.k - Grab the inside back or side collar, or the nameplate area (directly below the back collar), of either the shoulder pads or the jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar), even if possession is lost. The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul.

2.  The primary applicable definition:  2.32.13 … A runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball or is simulating possession of a live ball.

Given my opinion does the last sentence "The horse collar foul is enforced as a live ball foul." have any impact here on this play?  Other opinions?

There are two examples in the case book and in both of them the horse collar begins inbounds and the runner is pulled down out of bounds.  Those are to be enforced as live ball fouls.

Based on that, if it starts OOB it's a late hit and after the play is over. But the rule book says "enforced as a live ball foul."  That's pretty explicit.

[dammitbobby]

That can very impactful though,  if it was 4th down,15 yards will likely yield Team A a first down if it's live ball foul, whereas it's 15 from the spot and B's ball 1/10 if it's dead ball. 

Unless it is very obviously late, I would rule that 4th down HCTs are live ball.

[refjeff]

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