Legal Play ??????

[fudilligas]

8 seconds remain in the game. Team A is losing by 1 point and has no TO's remaining. 3rd and goal from the B9.  A1 takes a handoff and runs around the end. He is about to get tackled on the 2 yardline and, unable to get OB, tosses the ball backwards and out of bounds thereby stopping the clock with 2 seconds remaining.  Team A now brings on the FG team and kicks the winning FG.

The question is: Is it legal for a player to stop the clock by throwing a backward pass OB with the sole purpose of stopping the clock??

[Atlanta Blue]

In FED, yes.  In NCAA, no.

Want to make it more strange?  Same situation, but as A1 is about to be tackled at the 2, he throws a FORWARD pass to A88 in the end zone.  There are 2 seconds remaining when the ball is caught in the end zone.  Or the pass is imcomplete.

Now what?

[Curious]

In FED, yes.  In NCAA, no.

Want to make it more strange?  Same situation, but as A1 is about to be tackled at the 2, he throws a FORWARD pass to A88 in the end zone.  There are 2 seconds remaining when the ball is caught in the end zone.  Or the pass is imcomplete.

Now what?

Always scheming, hey AB....

B would have to take the penalty in the first scenario; as to decline it, would result in a TD for A: So, fourth and goal for A from the B7.

In the second scenario, whether B accepts the penalty or not, A is going to have a 4th down play.  It's just a matter of whether B wants to push them back another 5 yards (which, as a kicker's coach, I assume you would hope they would - to get a better angle)...

[HLinNC]

A backward pass is essentially a fumble.  NF does not punish you for losing yardage and perhaps taking the opportunity to lose possession.

[bama_stripes]

8 seconds remain in the game. Team A is losing by 1 point and has no TO's remaining. 3rd and goal from the B9.  A1 takes a handoff and runs around the end.

I quit reading here.  Hopefully next season Team A will have a coach who's smart enough to kick the FG or spike the ball on 3rd down instead of calling a running play.

[Curious]

I quit reading here.  Hopefully next season Team A will have a coach who's smart enough to kick the FG or spike the ball on 3rd down instead of calling a running play.

But if that happened 'Bama, AB would have to create his own scenarios.....  

[VALJ]

I quit reading here.  Hopefully next season Team A will have a coach who's smart enough to kick the FG or spike the ball on 3rd down instead of calling a running play.

One would think, but I had TWO games last year with a similar late game situation and the offense down by 4 points.  BOTH times, while OUT OF TIMEOUTS, they called a sweep play. 

To tweak AB's scenario slightly, also remember that if time expires during his play, the game is over, since a period is not extended for a penalty with loss of down as part of the penalty.

[Atlanta Blue]

To tweak AB's scenario slightly, also remember that if time expires during his play, the game is over, since a period is not extended for a penalty with loss of down as part of the penalty.

True, which is why I made sure to say there was still two seconds left on the clock!

As for the situation, if the clock is stopped, there is no need for the spike.  I could see some teams MIGHT  even try a throw into the end zone, but a running play is foolish.

If it's MY team, line up for the FG boys, we just won this one!

[NoVaBJ]

Want to make it more strange?  Same situation, but as A1 is about to be tackled at the 2, he throws a FORWARD pass to A88 in the end zone.  There are 2 seconds remaining when the ball is caught in the end zone.  Or the pass is incomplete.

Now what?

IFP enforced from B2, 5 yards and loss of down, resulting in 4th/Goal/B7.  Whether the pass is complete or not, the clock is started on the ready for play after a foul committed for the purposes of conserving time, which this is.  The period is not extended for an untimed down because the penalty includes loss of down.  If the remaining time elapses before the snap, the period is over.

[Atlanta Blue]

Whether the pass is complete or not, the clock is started on the ready for play after a foul committed for the purposes of conserving time, which this is. 

While I see an argument for that, I'm not sure that's a cut and dried decision.  Another argument is that it had nothing to do with conserving time, but only had to do with trying to score.

Of course, if you are the WH, your argument wins!  In either case, A is going to get a chance at another play (assuming they snap prior to the clock running out), a play they would not have absent their foul.

Does FED need a runoff rule?

[bama_stripes]

In either case, A is going to get a chance at another play (assuming they snap prior to the clock running out), a play they would not have absent their foul.

Does FED need a runoff rule?

Not in my view.

Team B had a chance to tackle Team A before the pass, then had a chance to intercept or knock down the pass after that.  They bear some responsibility to play effective defense.

BTW, "your" movie is on Family Channel tonight (again).

[bbeagle]

The period is not extended for an untimed down because the penalty includes loss of down.  If the remaining time elapses before the snap, the period is over.

Right. But if a smart coach instructed the players do something in this situation that is NOT a loss-of-down penalty, the team gets the next down regardless of if they get the snap off before the end of the game.

For example, after the player is across the line of scrimmage, the player punts the ball into the endzone where this 'illegal kick' is caught (fumble recovery as an illegal kick is treated as a fumble). This is not a loss-of-down penalty, so the team would be able to get the next play off, correct?

I'm not advocating that this is a good play (because kicking through the back of the endzone (fumbling) is a turnover. But, I'm just stating that this is a loophole in the rules.

[Curious]

While I see an argument for that, I'm not sure that's a cut and dried decision.  Another argument is that it had nothing to do with conserving time, but only had to do with trying to score.

Of course, if you are the WH, your argument wins!  In either case, A is going to get a chance at another play (assuming they snap prior to the clock running out), a play they would not have absent their foul.

Does FED need a runoff rule?

I see some validity in the decision to invoke 3-4-6 in the backward pass scenario; but, with a forward pass, I would have to give some leeway to the passer if he was close to the LOS - as he may not have known exactly where he was.  Looking back, in the OP and in AB's scenarios, I very well may start the clock on the ready - since, in each, the runner was WELL PAST the LOS when he threw the ball forward.  Enforce the penalty, count the down, and, if they get the snap off, so be it....

NOW, ARE WE GOING TO LET THE OFFENDING TEAM KNOW THE CLOCK WILL START ON THE READY?

[Atlanta Blue]

NOW, ARE WE GOING TO LET THE OFFENDING TEAM KNOW THE CLOCK WILL START ON THE READY?

I think you have to.  By the written rule, it was either a TD or an incomplete pass that stopped the clock, so the "normal" enforcement would have it on the snap.  If you are going to invoke ANOTHER rule (3-4-6), doing it without notifying the coach you are doing it, and you can kiss your playoff games good bye!

[Curious]

I think you have to.  By the written rule, it was either a TD or an incomplete pass that stopped the clock, so the "normal" enforcement would have it on the snap.  If you are going to invoke ANOTHER rule (3-4-6), doing it without notifying the coach you are doing it, and you can kiss your playoff games good bye!

3-4-6 is a "written rule" too   Some might argue that the violators should not be given ANY special consideration...   

P.S.: I DO agree with you though....and not because of potential playoff assignments.

[bama_stripes]

In time-critical situations, I always let the QB know when the clock will start on the snap if it's not obvious.  In this particular play, I'd also make sure the head coach knows as well.

[Rulesman]

In time-critical situations, I always let the QB know when the clock will start on the snap if it's not obvious.  In this particular play, I'd also make sure the head coach knows as well.

Agree. I've always operated under the assumption doing that was a no-brainer. It falls under the heading of "managing the game."

[VALJ]

In time-critical situations, I always let the QB know when the clock will start on the snap if it's not obvious.  In this particular play, I'd also make sure the head coach knows as well.

Agree. I've always operated under the assumption doing that was a no-brainer. It falls under the heading of "managing the game."

What they said.

[cducote]

oops