Touchback or down at the 1/2 yard line

[redseal]

K has a scrimmage kick that is on the ground and headed toward R's endzone.  K picks up the ball at the 1/2 yard line and carries it into the endzone.  Touchback or 1st and 10 at the 1/2 yard line. 

Sorry if this has been asked before, I went through 10 pages and did a search and didn't find the answer to this question.

[Curious]

The ball becomes dead as soon as K POSSESSES a kick; so he carried a dead ball into the EZ.   Put it down at the 1/2 yd line.

[bossman72]

Agree.  1/10 @ B 1/2 yard line.

[HLinNC]

Kicks entering R's end zone are always a touchback.  However, the status of the ball in this scenario is no longer a kick.  As stated above, its 1-10 K at their own 1/2 yl.

[NVFOA_Ump]

K has a scrimmage kick that is on the ground and headed toward R's endzone.  K picks up the ball at the 1/2 yard line and carries it into the endzone.  Touchback or 1st and 10 at the 1/2 yard line. 

Sorry if this has been asked before, I went through 10 pages and did a search and didn't find the answer to this question.

If in your best judgement K had clear possession and control prior to crossing the goal line then it is dead at that possession spot.  But this is also a "When in Doubt ...." play in that "When in doubt, the kick ended in the EZ".

[Ralph Damren]

Welcome, Redseal, to our forum. I hope you find it both enjoyable and informative. You've been given excellent advise already by my buddies. I'll throw in a couple of things to keep
in mind on such plays as this:

(1) If K juggles ball before gaining full possession at the 1/2 yard line, he would have established a spot of first touching with first contact. This could provide better field position
for R.

(2) If full possession was no gained until ball was less than 12" from the goalline and not parallel to the sidelines, the ball wil need to be slightly advanced as end of ball cannot touch
R's goal line when spotted.

[refjeff]

Welcome, Redseal, to our forum. I hope you find it both enjoyable and informative. You've been excellent advise already by my buddies. I'll throw in a couple of things to keep
in mind on such plays as this:

(1) If K juggles ball before gaining full possession at the 1/2 yard line, he would have established a spot of first touching with first contact. This could provide better field position for R.

Can't be first touching after the ball crosses R's free kick line.  (2.12.1)  If K gains possession in the field of play it is their ball.

[ElvisLives]

(2) If full possession was no gained until ball was less than 12" from the goalline and not parallel to the sidelines, the ball wil need to be slightly advanced as end of ball cannot touch
R's goal line when spotted.

Ralph, this issue is common to NCAA (maybe even NFL, but I am not, have never been, and will never be, in the NFL). When Team A (or K, whatever you want to call them) possesses the ball, the most forward point of the ball (not necessarily a nose) is what is of interest, regardless if the ball is longitudinal to the sidelines, or rotated at some angle to the sidelines. If that point is between the goal lines - even by 1/8" of an inch - then a line perpendicular to the sidelines through that point on the field becomes the Team B (R) line of scrimmage, and a similar perpendicular line, at the point the length of the ball toward mid-field, becomes the Team A (K) line of scrimmage, momentarily. The ball is simply placed with its noses touching those two lines to establish the succeeding spot. There is no need to mysteriously 'advance' the ball, at all. It is where it was. Then, if the possession of the ball is to change, that is all that happens. Team B (R) now becomes Team A, and vice versa for their opponent.
If you think of the ball as always having its length parallel to the sidelines, and the ball is just pushed up and down the field in that orientation, when the ball is dead, your succeeding spot is established. Yeah, you might have to rotate the ball to be perpendicular to the most forward point of the dead ball, to establish the neutral zone, but that leaves the length of the ball in place, as it gets moved up and down the field.

[Ralph Damren]

Can't be first touching after the ball crosses R's free kick line.  (2.12.1)  If K gains possession in the field of play it is their ball.

The OP stated that this was a scrimmage kick.

[Ralph Damren]

Ralph, this issue is common to NCAA (maybe even NFL, but I am not, have never been, and will never be, in the NFL). When Team A (or K, whatever you want to call them) possesses the ball, the most forward point of the ball (not necessarily a nose) is what is of interest, regardless if the ball is longitudinal to the sidelines, or rotated at some angle to the sidelines. If that point is between the goal lines - even by 1/8" of an inch - then a line perpendicular to the sidelines through that point on the field becomes the Team B (R) line of scrimmage, and a similar perpendicular line, at the point the length of the ball toward mid-field, becomes the Team A (K) line of scrimmage, momentarily. The ball is simply placed with its noses touching those two lines to establish the succeeding spot. There is no need to mysteriously 'advance' the ball, at all. It is where it was. Then, if the possession of the ball is to change, that is all that happens. Team B (R) now becomes Team A, and vice versa for their opponent.
If you think of the ball as always having its length parallel to the sidelines, and the ball is just pushed up and down the field in that orientation, when the ball is dead, your succeeding spot is established. Yeah, you might have to rotate the ball to be perpendicular to the most forward point of the dead ball, to establish the neutral zone, but that leaves the length of the ball in place, as it gets moved up and down the field.

CASE PLAY 5.3.4a covers this. RULING : " The referee will, by rule,rotate and place the ball so that its rear point is not penetrating the plane of A's goal line. The ball is rotated with its rearmost point moved forward just enough so it isn't touching the goal line. A GAINS A FEW INCHES IN THE PROCESS."

The one time we can legally move the football 

[refjeff]

The OP stated that this was a scrimmage kick.

  Yes it did.  Sorry.  I don't know how I got that twisted in my head.

[ElvisLives]

CASE PLAY 5.3.4a covers this. RULING : " The referee will, by rule,rotate and place the ball so that its rear point is not penetrating the plane of A's goal line. The ball is rotated with its rearmost point moved forward just enough so it isn't touching the goal line. A GAINS A FEW INCHES IN THE PROCESS."

The one time we can legally move the football 

Well, that’s that for you guys, as flabbergasting and nonsensical as it is. Treat the ball as a fixed shape that just gets moved up and down the field and all of that is moot. But, if that’s what y’all want, knock yourselves out.

[NVFOA_Ump]

... as flabbergasting and nonsensical as it is.

You got that right.  The whole spotting the ball near the goal line and the definitions in rule 2 conflict with each other and combined with case plays 5.3.4 A and B leave us with an absurd conflict that IMHO needs to be fixed.

[sczeebra]

How about a little twist to this play. The ball has just come to rest at the 1/2 yard line and K runs in to down the ball and muffs it into the EZ. Touchback or 1/2 yard line because the ball was at rest?

[NVFOA_Ump]

How about a little twist to this play. The ball has just come to rest at the 1/2 yard line and K runs in to down the ball and muffs it into the EZ. Touchback or 1/2 yard line because the ball was at rest?

If it has " .... just come to rest...." as it's muffed that's simple, it's a TB.  For the kick to be ruled dead it has to be both at rest and no one making a play on the ball.  Here clearly K has made a play on the loose ball.  IMHO we don't want to be splitting hairs on this one.

[ilyazhito]

K has a scrimmage kick that is on the ground and headed toward R's endzone.  K picks up the ball at the 1/2 yard line and carries it into the endzone.  Touchback or 1st and 10 at the 1/2 yard line. 

Sorry if this has been asked before, I went through 10 pages and did a search and didn't find the answer to this question.

1st and 10 from the 1/2 yard line. The kick has ended, because K possessed the ball. The ball is dead as soon as K possesses it. The game clock will be on the snap because of the change of possession, and the play clock will be at 25 seconds.

[lawdog]

Whenever possible make anything inside the 1 a touchback.  No good comes from starting at the 1/2 yard line.  Can you be sure he controlled it at the 1/2?  If he clearly did, then fine.  Otherwise make this a TB if you can.

[bama_stripes]

Whenever possible make anything inside the 1 a touchback.  No good comes from starting at the 1/2 yard line.  Can you be sure he controlled it at the 1/2?  If he clearly did, then fine.  Otherwise make this a TB if you can.

I agree — if in doubt.  But not “whenever possible.”  Don’t deprive K of a great play.

[juxone]

I saw a question the other day that has me wondering... B intercepts team A’s pass inside team B’s end zone but is tackled by his facemask inside the endzone
 Wouldnt this be a touchback and it will be team B’s ball at their own 35-yard line following the penalty enforcement?

[CalhounLJ]

I saw a question the other day that has me wondering... B intercepts team A’s pass inside team B’s end zone but is tackled by his facemask inside the endzone
 Wouldnt this be a touchback and it will be team B’s ball at their own 35-yard line following the penalty enforcement?

Yes


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[RiderJake]

Well, that’s that for you guys, as flabbergasting and nonsensical as it is. Treat the ball as a fixed shape that just gets moved up and down the field and all of that is moot. But, if that’s what y’all want, knock yourselves out.

Of course, the accuracy of the ball position is amazing. Apparently, it doesn't factor in the players' ability to hit the ball. It's hard to treat the ball as a fixed shape that is moved around the field. In the game, the ball is more than that.