2023 NFHS Rule Interpretation Meeting

[Patrick E.]

The national rules interp meeting is coming up in a couple weeks ( https://www.nfhs.org/media/7212146/2023-summer-meeting-preliminary-conference-schedule-seattle.pdf )

What question(s) would you ask?

Is anybody here attending?

[HLinNC]

Hard to guess what to ask without the new rulebook.

[Patrick E.]

Here is some of the new wording that is expected to be in the rules book:

2-29-1
ART. 1 . . . A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside the sideline or end line, and that player remains out of bounds until returning to the field with any body part touching the field and no body part touching out of bounds.

Rule 2-32-16d (NEW), 9-4-3g DEFENSELESS RECEIVERS
RULE 2 – SECTION 32  PLAYER DESIGNATIONS
ART. 16 . . . A defenseless player is a player who, because of his physical position and focus of concentration, is especially vulnerable to injury. A player who initiates contact against a defenseless player is responsible for making legal contact. When in question, a player is defenseless. Examples of defenseless players include, but are not limited to:
a.  A passer;
b.  A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner;
c.  The intended receiver of a pass in the action during and immediately following an interception or potential interception;
d.  A receiver in (b) and (c) above, including the person intercepting the pass, who is forcefully contacted by an opponent and that contact is not:
    1.  Incidental contact as a result of making a play on the ball;
    2.  Initiated with open hands; or
    3.  An attempt to tackle by wrapping arm(s) around the receiver.
e.  A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped;
f.  A kickoff or punt returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner;
g.  A player on the ground including a runner who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet-first;
h.  A player obviously out of the play or not in the immediate vicinity of the runner; and
i.  A player who receives a blindside block with forceful contact not initiated with open hands.

RULE 9 – SECTION 4  ILLEGAL PERSONAL CONTACT
ART. 3 . . . No player or nonplayer shall: …
g. Make any other contact with an opponent, including a defenseless player (as in 2-32-16), which is deemed unnecessary or excessive and which incites roughness. …

RULE 7 – SECTION 5  FORWARD-PASS CLASSIFICATION
EXCEPTIONS:
1. It is legal for a player positioned directly behind the snapper to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving the snap that has neither been muffed nor touched the ground.
2. It is legal for a player to conserve yardage by intentionally throwing an incomplete forward pass if all of the following conditions are met:
    a. The passer has possessed the ball beyond the lateral boundary of the free-blocking zone as established at the snap;
    b. The pass reaches the neutral zone, including the extension beyond the sideline; and
    c. The passer is the only player to possess the ball after the snap ends.

RULE 10 – SECTION 4  BASIC SPOTS
ART. 1 . . . If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the action that occurs during the down. This is the basic spot for penalty enforcement.
ART. 2 . . . The basic spot is the previous spot unless 8-5-2c applies for:
a.  A foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick.
b.  A foul which occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1. See 10-5-5 for special enforcement on roughing the passer. See 10-5-1b for special enforcement on kick-catching interference.
c.  A foul which occurs during a down in which a legal kick occurs and an inadvertent whistle ends the down prior to possession by either team.
d.  A foul by A or B when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage where there is no change of possession;
e.  A foul by A that occurs behind the line of scrimmage when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage;
f.  A foul by A that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage; and
g.  A foul by A or B when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage before a change of possession. …
ART. 4 . . . The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:
a.  Illegal batting or illegal kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of therun or related run;
b.  Illegal participation as in 9-6-4a and 9-6-4g;
c.  An illegal forward pass as in 7-5-2c and intentional grounding as in 7-5-2d;
d.  A foul by the team in possession that occurs behind the end of the run orrelated run following a change of possession;
e.  When A commits any foul in his end zone for which the penalty is accepted(8-5-2c); and
f.  A foul by A that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage during a running playas defined in 10-3-2 when:
    1.  The run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage; and
    2.  The foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run.
ART. 5 . . . The basic spot is the succeeding spot for:
a.  An unsportsmanlike foul.
b.  A dead-ball foul.
c.  A nonplayer foul.
d.  When the final result is a touchback.
e.  A foul by B when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage;
f.  A foul that occurs beyond the end of the run or related run following a change of possession; and
g.  A foul by A that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage during a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when:
    1.  The run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage; and
    2.  The foul occurs in advance of the end of the run or related run.
NOTE: The succeeding spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the subsequent kickoff as in 8-2-2, 8-2-3, 8-2-4 and 8-2-5. …
ART. 8 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2 unless the provisions of 10-4-2 through 10-4-7, or 10-5 apply.


TABLE 10-4 (new)
FOUL BY    SPOT OF FOUL                   END OF PLAY                      BASIC SPOT
A              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Behind Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
A              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Beyond Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
A              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Behind Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
A              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Foul Behind End of Run or Related Run – Spot of Foul
A              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Foul Advance of End of Run or Related Run – Succeeding Spot
B              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Behind Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
B              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Succeeding Spot
B              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Behind Line of Scrimmage  Previous Spot
B              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Succeeding Spot

NOTE: The basic spot is the spot of the foul when A commits any foul in his end zone for which the penalty is accepted (8-5-2c).

[Ralph Damren]

Here is some of the new wording that is expected to be in the rules book:

2-29-1
ART. 1 . . . A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside the sideline or end line, and that player remains out of bounds until returning to the field with any body part touching the field and no body part touching out of bounds.

Rule 2-32-16d (NEW), 9-4-3g DEFENSELESS RECEIVERS
RULE 2 – SECTION 32  PLAYER DESIGNATIONS
ART. 16 . . . A defenseless player is a player who, because of his physical position and focus of concentration, is especially vulnerable to injury. A player who initiates contact against a defenseless player is responsible for making legal contact. When in question, a player is defenseless. Examples of defenseless players include, but are not limited to:
a.  A passer;
b.  A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner;
c.  The intended receiver of a pass in the action during and immediately following an interception or potential interception;
d.  A receiver in (b) and (c) above, including the person intercepting the pass, who is forcefully contacted by an opponent and that contact is not:
    1.  Incidental contact as a result of making a play on the ball;
    2.  Initiated with open hands; or
    3.  An attempt to tackle by wrapping arm(s) around the receiver.
e.  A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped;
f.  A kickoff or punt returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner;
g.  A player on the ground including a runner who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet-first;
h.  A player obviously out of the play or not in the immediate vicinity of the runner; and
i.  A player who receives a blindside block with forceful contact not initiated with open hands.

RULE 9 – SECTION 4  ILLEGAL PERSONAL CONTACT
ART. 3 . . . No player or nonplayer shall: …
g. Make any other contact with an opponent, including a defenseless player (as in 2-32-16), which is deemed unnecessary or excessive and which incites roughness. …

RULE 7 – SECTION 5  FORWARD-PASS CLASSIFICATION
EXCEPTIONS:
1. It is legal for a player positioned directly behind the snapper to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving the snap that has neither been muffed nor touched the ground.
2. It is legal for a player to conserve yardage by intentionally throwing an incomplete forward pass if all of the following conditions are met:
    a. The passer has possessed the ball beyond the lateral boundary of the free-blocking zone as established at the snap;
    b. The pass reaches the neutral zone, including the extension beyond the sideline; and
    c. The passer is the only player to possess the ball after the snap ends.

RULE 10 – SECTION 4  BASIC SPOTS
ART. 1 . . . If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the action that occurs during the down. This is the basic spot for penalty enforcement.
ART. 2 . . . The basic spot is the previous spot unless 8-5-2c applies for:
a.  A foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick.
b.  A foul which occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1. See 10-5-5 for special enforcement on roughing the passer. See 10-5-1b for special enforcement on kick-catching interference.
c.  A foul which occurs during a down in which a legal kick occurs and an inadvertent whistle ends the down prior to possession by either team.
d.  A foul by A or B when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage where there is no change of possession;
e.  A foul by A that occurs behind the line of scrimmage when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage;
f.  A foul by A that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage; and
g.  A foul by A or B when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage before a change of possession. …
ART. 4 . . . The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:
a.  Illegal batting or illegal kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of therun or related run;
b.  Illegal participation as in 9-6-4a and 9-6-4g;
c.  An illegal forward pass as in 7-5-2c and intentional grounding as in 7-5-2d;
d.  A foul by the team in possession that occurs behind the end of the run orrelated run following a change of possession;
e.  When A commits any foul in his end zone for which the penalty is accepted(8-5-2c); and
f.  A foul by A that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage during a running playas defined in 10-3-2 when:
    1.  The run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage; and
    2.  The foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run.
ART. 5 . . . The basic spot is the succeeding spot for:
a.  An unsportsmanlike foul.
b.  A dead-ball foul.
c.  A nonplayer foul.
d.  When the final result is a touchback.
e.  A foul by B when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage;
f.  A foul that occurs beyond the end of the run or related run following a change of possession; and
g.  A foul by A that occurs beyond the line of scrimmage during a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when:
    1.  The run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage; and
    2.  The foul occurs in advance of the end of the run or related run.
NOTE: The succeeding spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the subsequent kickoff as in 8-2-2, 8-2-3, 8-2-4 and 8-2-5. …
ART. 8 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2 unless the provisions of 10-4-2 through 10-4-7, or 10-5 apply.


TABLE 10-4 (new)
FOUL BY    SPOT OF FOUL                   END OF PLAY                      BASIC SPOT
A              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Behind Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
A              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Beyond Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
A              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Behind Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
A              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Foul Behind End of Run or Related Run – Spot of Foul
A              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Foul Advance of End of Run or Related Run – Succeeding Spot
B              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Behind Line of Scrimmage   Previous Spot
B              Behind Line of Scrimmage   Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Succeeding Spot
B              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Behind Line of Scrimmage  Previous Spot
B              Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Beyond Line of Scrimmage  Succeeding Spot

NOTE: The basic spot is the spot of the foul when A commits any foul in his end zone for which the penalty is accepted (8-5-2c).

THE REFEREE MAY WANT TO TAPE A 'CHEAT-SHEET' OF THIS TAPED TO THE UNDER-BILL OF HIS CAP ! 

IMHO, while technicians try to decipher the changes to Rule 10-4,  Rule 2-32-16 will generate the most 'discussions' both on and off the field. In a coaches clinic, this was the most questioned:

ONE COACH : "SO I can't teach my D-backs to 'blow-up' the recievers anymore , trying to knock the ball loose ?

I RESPONDED: " Thats right, coach, but NEITHER CAN YOUR OPPOSING COACH !"

After a long discussion on this rule change, I asked for a show of hands as to who felt it was a good one. All coaches slowly raised their hands - exceptiing the coach with the above question. He quickly glanced around, and then quickly raised his, too.

When discussing Rule 10-4, one of the coaches muttered : " We trust you guys to know that stuff, so PLEASE don't let us down  ! "
He said 'please' so I promised we wouldn't. I hope to hold that promise.

[bossman72]

They screwed up that 10-4 section.  Completely FUBAR.

Why are they using succeeding spot in that table instead of end of run?
Why are they using basic spot and enforcement spot interchangeably?  The spot of the foul should never be a basic spot!

Someone pointed out on another forum:

A 1/10 @ A-20. A28 runs to the A-25 where his facemask is grabbed and twisted by B28, causing A28 to fumble. The ball rolls out of bounds at the A-22.

In NCAA this is enforced from the end of the related run, A 1/10 @ A-40 easy.

In NFHS, I imagine that's what they want too. It's what we've always done. But the succeeding spot here is not the A-25, it's the A-22. So if you enforced according to the new rule we end up at the A-37.

EDIT: For more hilarity imagine the ball going out of bounds in either endzone.

[Brian26]

.

EDIT: For more hilarity imagine the ball going out of bounds in either endzone.

I assume this may get cleared up otherwise what would be the ruling or enforcement?

[HLinNC]

I assume this may get cleared up otherwise what would be the ruling or enforcement?

Unfortunately, when a change of this magnitude occurs with the Fed, it can take multiple years to shake it out.  I seem to recall that the horsecollar tackle took three.
Its why I like the years when we have little to none.

[Brian26]

Unfortunately, when a change of this magnitude occurs with the Fed, it can take multiple years to shake it out.  I seem to recall that the horsecollar tackle took three.
Its why I like the years when we have little to none.

Like Bossman pointed out the succeeding spot portion on running play and foul beyond line of scrimmage doesn't make sense. A foul by B with a fumble going out of bounds in either the endzone punishes A with a succeeding spot enforcement. How else do you enforce it?

[Ralph Damren]

When we changed 10-4 to reflect fouls behind the LOS by both A/K &  B/R to be previous spot enforcement, we realized this would create some exceptions (IG/IFP and like = spot fouls). We felt this would provide an good and fair balance between both offense & defense, but we didn't feel it would create the apparent complexity that we now have.

I NOW KNOW HOW DR. FRANKENSTEIN FELT AFTER SEEING HIS INVENTION BECOME A MONSTER. 

[Ralph Damren]

I have discussed Bossman's play with a couple of fellow Rules Committee members and have a call into NFHS get explaination. One of the members added if B recovered A's fumble after committing a FM, the succeeding spot would give B the ball. It's good to catch these things before the season begins and they could become real. It appears that the expansion replaces Rule 10-6 , which explains the 'all-but-one principle' and the two pages of diagrams of penalty enforcement that did exist. I'll keep you guys up on what I hear from NFHS.

[KWH]

I assume this may get cleared up otherwise what would be the ruling or enforcement?

Lets no even go there Brian - Just replace Succeeding Spot End of the Run or Related Run

[Brian26]

Lets no even go there Brian - Just replace Succeeding Spot End of the Run or Related Run

If only I had the power to 

[KWH]

If only I had the power to 

Not sure what state you are from but, stay tuned, we have not kicked off yet!

[bossman72]

I have discussed Bossman's play with a couple of fellow Rules Committee members and have a call into NFHS get explaination. One of the members added if B recovered A's fumble after committing a FM, the succeeding spot would give B the ball. It's good to catch these things before the season begins and they could become real. It appears that the expansion replaces Rule 10-6 , which explains the 'all-but-one principle' and the two pages of diagrams of penalty enforcement that did exist. I'll keep you guys up on what I hear from NFHS.

I think the rules need to differentiate between basic spot and enforcement spot.  For example:

 The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:
a.  Illegal batting or illegal kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of therun or related run;

So are defensive fouls penalized in this scenario from the spot of the illegal kick?


Also, reading this isn't adding up, unless I'm missing something.
What rule do we point to that says we enforce offensive holding on a passing (loose ball) play from the previous spot?
If your answer is 10-4-2b, that rule was not changed from last year (note the lack of underline above), and last year that was enforced with all but one from the spot of the foul.

[Ralph Damren]

Lets no even go there Brian - Just replace Succeeding Spot End of the Run or Related Run

I've often felt that 'succeeding spot' to be synonymous with dead ball or live ball treated as dead ball fouls...ie..the play's over . 'End of run or related run' aids in coverage involving fumbles, COP and the like. KWH (author of the rule outlawing 'the Oregonian flea-flicker) has once again clairfied this dilemma.

MR. WEBSTER SEZ: SUCCEEDING = SUBSEQUENT,BEING THAT WHICH FOLLOWS....
IN  LINGO: AFTER PLAY'S DEAD

[bama_stripes]

Once again, allowing RefStripes members to vet the changes would have prevented this.....

[Ralph Damren]

I'm told that this will be 'clairfied' after the interp meeting.  Until then, consider this:

SCENE : Spud Chuckers ball at Wharf Rats' 20, 3rd & 8.

ACT I : "Scooter", Spud Chucker tail back, carries ball to 10;
ACT II : Big ole' Bubba ,the Rats nose guard, rips Scooter's helmet off by facemask and causes him to fumble;   
ACT III: "Rocket", Rat's D-back, scoops up fumble  and  off to paydirt. 
ACT IV:    - the crew confers;

ACT V: The whitehat, a walking rule book waiting to happen, recalls the NEW 10-4 Table and offers the Spud Chucker coach...
           "You can decline the penalty and the Rats have a touchdown, or you can accept the penalty and the Rats have a touchdown,BUT you can have the facemask penalty enforced either on the try or kickoff. 

    (seven man crew)

SUGGESTION : Any spring football or all-star games during the summer, play by last year's rules while waiting for cllarifications.

[ilyazhito]

Rats do not get a touchdown, because they did not possess the ball with clean hands. A (Spud Churchers) will have the foul enforced from the end of the run, the B-10, as the foul happened during the running play, not the loose ball play. The foul caused the ball to become loose, so it is A's ball, 1/Goal from the B-5, and the game clock starts on the ready-for-play signal.

[Brian26]

Question could 10-4-8 be considered in the example by Bossman or because it says "unless 10-4-2 through 10-4-7, or 10-5 apply" override spotting it from end run?

[Ralph Damren]

Rats do not get a touchdown, because they did not possess the ball with clean hands. A (Spud Churchers) will have the foul enforced from the end of the run, the B-10, as the foul happened during the running play, not the loose ball play. The foul caused the ball to become loose, so it is A's ball, 1/Goal from the B-5, and the game clock starts on the ready-for-play signal.

I fully agree, Ilyazhito, that should be the result of the play. Stating that the enforcement spot is the succeeding spot sends us back to 2-41-10 :
"..The succeeding spot is the where the ball would next be snapped or kicked if a foul had not occurred."

 

We now wait with baited breath for the 'clairfication'   

[Snapper]

Rats do not get a touchdown, because they did not possess the ball with clean hands. A (Spud Churchers) will have the foul enforced from the end of the run, the B-10, as the foul happened during the running play, not the loose ball play. The foul caused the ball to become loose, so it is A's ball, 1/Goal from the B-5, and the game clock starts on the ready-for-play signal.

Snap though, right?  (I’m not a Fed rules expert.)  But the ball became dead from the apparent score.

[VALJ]

Unfortunately, when a change of this magnitude occurs with the Fed, it can take multiple years to shake it out.  I seem to recall that the horsecollar tackle took three.
Its why I like the years when we have little to none.

Despite the best effort of the committee members like our esteemed fried Ralph, it seems like every major rule change ends up taking three years - year 1 where it gets put in place, year two where they fix the wording to remove the unexpected consequences, and year three where they get rid of the unintended consequences of fixing the first set of unintended consequences and get hints where they want them to be.

[Ralph Damren]

I responded to the return call from NFHS on this under 'Rule Change in SC' and am too lazy to type it again. 

[sj]

Would it work to just eliminate 10-4-5-e?

Since it would not be there anymore it would mean that the plays in question would be covered by 10-4-8. The Spud Chuckers would keep the ball with the penalty enforced from the end of the run or related run.

[CalhounLJ]

What we are experiencing now is why I was (and continue to be) so adamant against changing or altering the definition of succeeding spot. When you start monkeying with spots, whether it's succeeding, previous, or basic, you have the potential to destroy the very foundation upon which penalty enforcement is built. It's imperative to get it right, because everything starts and ends with the understanding of the spot and how to use it...