Author Topic: Illegal Shift (Read 13014 times)

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2019, 02:06:54 PM »

I’m on line looking at examples of illegal shift. Take a look at this. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ7AnJlHeL8.
Is this an illegal shift because the quarterback was not set for 1 full second?

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2019, 02:12:16 PM »

Also I am still predominantly a wing. These illegal shift motion calls seem to me to be within the domaine of the white hats to call? Or can wings make this call as well.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #27 on:** January 08, 2019, 02:36:36 PM »

Exactly. It became a shift because the QB and the slot were both moving at the same time. While the slot did reset for 1 second, the QB did not. Therefore, it's an illegal shift at the snap. I instruct my wings to make that call if they see it.

FLAHL · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2019, 02:44:22 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on January 08, 2019, 02:12:16 PM

Also I am still predominantly a wing. These illegal shift motion calls seem to me to be within the domaine of the white hats to call? Or can wings make this call as well.

Wings can make this call. In fact, sometimes the wing is the only one who can make it. Think about a back who is in motion coming toward you and away from the referee. If he cuts upfield prior to the snap, that's illegal motion and you're the only one who can see it. Same with illegal shift. If A1 goes in motion toward you and A2 shifts in the backfield, you could be the only official to know whether A1 reset or whether he didn't.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2019, 08:36:59 AM »

Thinks to think about before you blow and throw

......

Often a blown pre-snap can be prevented by resetting or calling timeout . Some such would be : illegal shift, illegal motion, illegal formation. Merely drop your flag

at the snap BUT DON'T blow your whistle, as this is a live ball play , and inadvertent whistles aren't fun and may become costly if you have a post game meal

.

Some blown pre-snaps can't get out of and become dead ball fouls when they occur. Some such would be : false start and encroachment.

When in doubt of blowing and throwing or waiting until the snap...WAIT. It's much easier to "re- whine" the play if it was a dead ball foul (and remember to add a few " if the clock started) then to wave off the flag if a potential live ball foul was inadvertently called during a dead ball.

You are off to a good start in your career, Derek, in asking very thoughtful questions. Keep up the good progress.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #30 on:** January 09, 2019, 01:19:57 PM »

Thanks Ralph. I think i’ve Got a good understanding of illegal shift/motion. A couple points of clarification as I go back in my mind to remember plays during the season....

1: as a wing official I noticed a couple of times receivers on my side might leave a bit early ahead of the snap. Illegal motion correct? This would be a live ball foul. What if the receiver breaks ahead a couple of steps but the ball is not snapped. Is this a false start? Or do we allow him the opportunity to reset for the full one second before the snap. If he is trying to get back into position and the ball is snapped then illegal shift at the snap if he does not reset for 1 second.

2. With a back....I missed a call where he broke out of his set position and was moving forward just ahead of the snap, now I know I should have thrown the flag for illegal motion at the snap. I saw it out of the corner of my eye and I thought the White Hat would flag but he did not. Coach was in my ear on this but could this same back having realiEd his error try to reset before the snap?

I’m trying to understand where the point of no return is for the team A player involved in a potential illegal motions. Does this make sense?

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #31 on:** January 09, 2019, 02:59:09 PM »

Derek, perhaps if you read slowly through NFHS 7-2-6 and 7-2-7 and their related Case Book plays, step by step, one at a time it may help your differentiating between the two.

7-2-6 requires all (every) offensive player to come to an absolute stop and remain stationary simultaneously[for at least one second before the snap. (If all Offensive players come to an absolute stop, and someone flinches, but he resets and ALL Offensive players remain (or reset) motionless simultaneously for the required 1 second before the snap - you have NOTHING (provided that flinch didn't cause a violation of 7-1-7 : False Start")

7-2-7 describes allowable "motion". AFTER the entire Offensive team has complied with 7-2-6, ONLY ONE A player may be in motion - in any direction EXCEPT towards the opponent's goal. Case Book play 7.2.7 covers several variations that may prove helpful. With Case Book plays, concentrating on one option and the answer for that option, before moving on to additional options may prove less confusing.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #32 on:** January 09, 2019, 03:38:18 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on January 09, 2019, 01:19:57 PM

Thanks Ralph. I think i’ve Got a good understanding of illegal shift/motion. A couple points of clarification as I go back in my mind to remember plays during the season....

1: as a wing official I noticed a couple of times receivers on my side might leave a bit early ahead of the snap. Illegal motion correct? This would be a live ball foul. What if the receiver breaks ahead a couple of steps but the ball is not snapped. Is this a false start? Or do we allow him the opportunity to reset for the full one second before the snap. If he is trying to get back into position and the ball is snapped then illegal shift at the snap if he does not reset for 1 second. If the Receiver leaves a bit early ahead of the snap he has committed a false start. Blow your whistle and throw your flag. Dead ball, false start. Same thing with the second example. If he "breaks ahead" it is movement that simulates movement at the snap. Blow your whistle and throw your flag. Dead ball, false start. This is different from merely moving from one position to the next and not resetting. It's kind of like porn - hard to define, but you will know it when you see it... You will know when/if the player moves in a way that simulates action at the snap.

2. With a back....I missed a call where he broke out of his set position and was moving forward just ahead of the snap, now I know I should have thrown the flag for illegal motion at the snap. I saw it out of the corner of my eye and I thought the White Hat would flag but he did not. Coach was in my ear on this but could this same back having realiEd his error try to reset before the snap? This is different from the examples in (1) because a back can move forward to another position without stepping in the neutral zone. If a Receiver on the line moves forward, he has broken the plane and is almost always a false start. Same thing with a slot or WR off the line. While it is technically possible for him to move forward without encroaching, and can legally step forward to be on the line of scrimmage, any sudden and/abrupt movement forward is almost always going to be a false start. The situation with this back isn't like that. He can move forward, turn and go in motion, or simply reset closer to the line and it not be a foul. However, we can still call a false start on him if he moves forward in a way that makes you believe he thought it was snap time..

I’m trying to understand where the point of no return is for the team A player involved in a potential illegal motions. Does this make sense?

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #33 on:** January 09, 2019, 03:48:54 PM »

7-2-6 requires all (every) offensive player to come to an absolute stop and remain stationary simultaneously[for at least one second before the snap. (If all Offensive players come to an absolute stop, and someone flinches, but he resets and ALL Offensive players remain (or reset) motionless simultaneously for the required 1 second before the snap - you have NOTHING (provided that flinch didn't cause a violation of 7-1-7 : False Start")

ok...that is very interesting and explains why when I'm watching NFL games when somebody flinches the defense rushes across because if they didn't then it would potentially allow the reset. I'm assuming this is the same for High School?

I also think this type of movement by the offensive player is often whistled right away as a dead ball foul....and I admit I have been guilty of this. So what you are saying is if an offensive lineman flinches and the defense doesn't react and the offending player resets along with everybody else for 1 second we have nothing!

What you are saying is very eye opening.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #34 on:** January 09, 2019, 03:51:27 PM »

thanks Calhoun...that's very helpful.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #35 on:** January 09, 2019, 05:24:16 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on January 09, 2019, 03:48:54 PM

7-2-6 requires all (every) offensive player to come to an absolute stop and remain stationary simultaneously[for at least one second before the snap. (If all Offensive players come to an absolute stop, and someone flinches, but he resets and ALL Offensive players remain (or reset) motionless simultaneously for the required 1 second before the snap - you have NOTHING (provided that flinch didn't cause a violation of 7-1-7 : False Start")

ok...that is very interesting and explains why when I'm watching NFL games when somebody flinches the defense rushes across because if they didn't then it would potentially allow the reset. I'm assuming this is the same for High School?

I also think this type of movement by the offensive player is often whistled right away as a dead ball foul....and I admit I have been guilty of this. So what you are saying is if an offensive lineman flinches and the defense doesn't react and the offending player resets along with everybody else for 1 second we have nothing!

What you are saying is very eye opening.

No that’s not right at all. If an offensive lineman or anyone else for that matter “flinches” it’s a false start

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AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #36 on:** January 09, 2019, 06:31:07 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on January 09, 2019, 05:24:16 PM

No that’s not right at all. If an offensive lineman or anyone else for that matter “flinches” it’s a false start

Mea Culpa, "flinches" may not have been the best adjective to use (which is probably why I added, "provided that flinch didn't cause a violation of 7-1-7 : False Start", what I probably should have suggested was someone either continuing moving, after everyone else stops, delaying the required pause being "simultaneous", for EVERYONE ending that full second before the snap. Of course, a shift doesn't have to start exactly simultaneously, the rule requires that EVERYONE remains still for 1 second after all movement has stopped, for 1 second before the snap.

Should "Motion" begin, (likely inadvertently) before a shift has ended, it becomes an illegal motion if it does not pause, (along with all other Offensive players) for a full, 1 second before the snap. (Again, sorry - Score one for the "word police").

The point is, "Shifting" has specific requirements and "Motion" has it's own, different specific requirements, which are separate and equally required, which often call for special attention and focus in "short yardage" situations..

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #37 on:** January 09, 2019, 06:47:05 PM »

I agree completely. Good point.

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bossman72 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 10, 2019, 08:55:54 AM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on January 09, 2019, 01:19:57 PM

I’m trying to understand where the point of no return is for the team A player involved in a potential illegal motions. Does this make sense?

It's all about abruptness. False starts can't be corrected. That's why we blow our whistle and shut the play down immediately when we see one.

If the movement looks jerkey, quick, abrupt, or simulates what the person normally would do when the ball is snapped, then shut it down for a false start.

Shifts and motions should be smooth, and there shouldn't be any question by the defense what the offensive player's intentions are. Often times you'll see teams do the "quick hands" play where all of the linemen abruptly go from a 2-point to a 3-point stance. Going from a 2-point to a 3-point stance in and of itself is not automatically a false start. But, if it's done quickly and abruptly and makes the defense think the play is going to start, then it's a false start.

Does that make sense?

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #39 on:** January 10, 2019, 09:54:24 AM »

Quote from: bossman72 on January 10, 2019, 08:55:54 AM

It's all about abruptness. False starts can't be corrected. That's why we blow our whistle and shut the play down immediately when we see one.

If the movement looks jerkey, quick, abrupt, or simulates what the person normally would do when the ball is snapped, then shut it down for a false start.

Shifts and motions should be smooth, and there shouldn't be any question by the defense what the offensive player's intentions are.

Does that make sense?

Well stated, another example of the difference might be a team that routinely sends a back in motion, who takes a relaxed initial step forward, then turns (in either direction) to continue his motion, who when in a critical "short-yardage" situation chooses to dramatically explode forward, in that first step before turning sideways to continue his motion (ostensibly to deliberately encourage an encroachment reaction from the defense).

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #40 on:** January 10, 2019, 12:55:10 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on January 07, 2019, 03:23:49 PM

I'm not sure what the overall timing of this is but the R & U are counting the Team A players. We've always been instructed that if on our 1st count I have 12 (or more) to quickly confirm then blow the whistle and throw the flag since this is a dead ball foul. We should be wary of trying to make the judgment on whether or not the defense has been "disadvantaged" due to Team A having too many players on the field for some period of time since it's nearly impossible given the R & U positioning to actually make that determination. If we (R & U) missed the count (shame on us) then throw the flag and let the play go and sort out the correct results after the play.

NVFOA Ump. I am re-reading the posts and I made a mistake. The player trying to get off was from team B.

I have a clear understanding now between illegal participation and illegal substitution. If A or B has 12 and all 12 participate it is a 15 yard illegal participation. If one is trying to get off and does not participate 5 yard illegal substitution. I’m flagging either at the snap....but we have the ability to prevent the play from going live if we see 12 in formation and the snap is imminent.

walkintall · « **Reply #41 on:** January 11, 2019, 04:33:18 PM »

Quote from: bossman72 on January 10, 2019, 08:55:54 AM

It's all about abruptness. False starts can't be corrected. That's why we blow our whistle and shut the play down immediately when we see one.

If the movement looks jerkey, quick, abrupt, or simulates what the person normally would do when the ball is snapped, then shut it down for a false start.

Shifts and motions should be smooth, and there shouldn't be any question by the defense what the offensive player's intentions are. Often times you'll see teams do the "quick hands" play where all of the linemen abruptly go from a 2-point to a 3-point stance. Going from a 2-point to a 3-point stance in and of itself is not automatically a false start. But, if it's done quickly and abruptly and makes the defense think the play is going to start, then it's a false start.

Does that make sense?

During pre-game, coach tells us his linemen do this. I tell him, that's fine coach, as long as it's not done in such a way as to cause the defense to encroach.

He says, Well hell son. Why else would we do it?

Magician · « **Reply #42 on:** March 07, 2019, 04:23:17 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on January 10, 2019, 12:55:10 PM

NVFOA Ump. I am re-reading the posts and I made a mistake. The player trying to get off was from team B.

I have a clear understanding now between illegal participation and illegal substitution. If A or B has 12 and all 12 participate it is a 15 yard illegal participation. If one is trying to get off and does not participate 5 yard illegal substitution. I’m flagging either at the snap....but we have the ability to prevent the play from going live if we see 12 in formation and the snap is imminent.

I'm glad I waited until the end of the thread to comment on this because I was going to say I have never seen A snap the ball when one of their players was trying to get off the field. If they did I would be more likely to flag it just for them being stupid!

The rest of this is good advice. Quick, abrupt movements by eligible receivers should be false starts and not illegal shifts or illegal motion. Don't let them reset. The only exception might be motion by a wing back if a team is running a single or double wing. The wings usually go in motion immediately before the snap and that motion can sometimes be abrupt. But it's a common move by any team that runs that offense on every snap so it's not considered a false start. Illegal motion usually only happens one of two ways - two back started moving and neither was set before the snap or a motion man bows enough that he's going forward at the snap. It could also happen if an end on the line of scrimmage goes in motion without first establishing as a back or being 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. Illegal shift happens a lot more than illegal motion.

Curious · « **Reply #43 on:** March 09, 2019, 10:53:37 AM »

As well documented, IS is a foul at the snap. Just for "fun", if the "IS player" is in motion (at the snap) and is also going toward the LOS, how are you going to handle the call?

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #44 on:** March 09, 2019, 01:55:42 PM »

Well you might reference NFHS: 7-1-7, which describes a False Start, as;

a. A shift or feigned charge simulates action at the snap.
b. Any act clearly intended to cause B to encroach.
c. Any A player, on his line between the snapper and a player on the end of his line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground, moves his hand(s) or makes any quick movement.

NFHS: 7-2-6 defines the requirement that " ALL 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet head or body for at least one second before the snap..

NFHS: 7-2-7 provides an exemption for, "Only 1 A player may be in motion at the snap"... and then provides a list of requirements that player must satisfy for that movement to remain legal.

If YOU judge the player, you've observed to be in motion, to have violated any of the 3 actions described, you likely have a "False Start". If not, and that player continues in motion through the snap to where it becomes "illegal motion", it would seem Illegal Motion would be the proper call

Curious · « **Reply #45 on:** March 12, 2019, 12:31:57 PM »

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on March 09, 2019, 01:55:42 PM

Well you might reference NFHS: 7-1-7, which describes a False Start, as;

a. A shift or feigned charge simulates action at the snap.
b. Any act clearly intended to cause B to encroach.
c. Any A player, on his line between the snapper and a player on the end of his line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground, moves his hand(s) or makes any quick movement.

NFHS: 7-2-6 defines the requirement that " ALL 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet head or body for at least one second before the snap..

NFHS: 7-2-7 provides an exemption for, "Only 1 A player may be in motion at the snap"... and then provides a list of requirements that player must satisfy for that movement to remain legal.

If YOU judge the player, you've observed to be in motion, to have violated any of the 3 actions described, you likely have a "False Start". If not, and that player continues in motion through the snap to where it becomes "illegal motion", it would seem Illegal Motion would be the proper call

I know the rule "Al"...you don't have to reprint the rule book. I wanted to point out that A could commit two similar-appearing fouls but with differing enforcement. I was just looking for a "philosophical" discussion....

bama_stripes · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2019, 07:33:57 AM »

Quote from: Curious on March 12, 2019, 12:31:57 PM

I know the rule "Al"...you don't have to reprint the rule book. I wanted to point out that A could commit two similar-appearing fouls but with differing enforcement. I was just looking for a "philosophical" discussion....

To my mind, IS/IM isn’t a FS unless he also does something to simulate the snap. By calling it a dead ball FS, you take away the opportunity for the defense to make an advantageous play.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #47 on:** March 13, 2019, 11:11:17 AM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on March 13, 2019, 07:33:57 AM

To my mind, IS/IM isn’t a FS unless he also does something to simulate the snap. By calling it a dead ball FS, you take away the opportunity for the defense to make an advantageous play.

I agree. Unless the player in motion clearly changes direction and heads upfield beating the snap, I'd have IM. I'd need to see some specific act that says false start, not just his motion is a bit toward the LOS and no parallel to or away from the LOS.

Curious · « **Reply #48 on:** March 13, 2019, 11:35:46 AM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on March 13, 2019, 07:33:57 AM

To my mind, IS/IM isn’t a FS unless he also does something to simulate the snap. By calling it a dead ball FS, you take away the opportunity for the defense to make an advantageous play.

Exactly why I brought this up.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #49 on:** March 13, 2019, 09:50:56 PM »

Quote from: Curious on March 12, 2019, 12:31:57 PM

I know the rule "Al"...you don't have to reprint the rule book. I wanted to point out that A could commit two similar-appearing fouls but with differing enforcement. I was just looking for a "philosophical" discussion....

These are two distinct violations, and we have to understand and recognize the difference. A FS happens BEFORE the play starts, is not correctable and prevents the play from beginning, so enforcement for the violation is not influenced by any action associated with subsequent play.

the violation for IM happens with the starting of a play, and an improper action can be corrected prior to the play beginning, if the requirements can be properly accomplished before the ball is snapped, and does not cause the play to automatically terminate. Determining which violation has occurred is NOT an either/or choice, it is understanding recognizing what has happened and applying the appropriate consequence.