Enforcement Question

[theunofficialofficial]

During my off season rules study came up with a situation that I couldn't exactly figure out enforcement.

3rd and 10 for A on B's 18. A15 throws a beautiful pass to the end zone but it's picked off by B30. As B30 is running a sweep around the back of the end zone B20 takes A10 to the ground.
B30 is tackled:
A) In the End Zone
B) At B's 10.

I say that both of these result in a Safety, but my study partner doesn't believe so. Thoughts? Input? Some rules citations to point to? I've read rule 10 multiple times and can't figure out who is right.

[hefnerjm]

Did the change of possession occur in the end zone? 

I) if the intercepting player is tackled, or kneels down, in the end zone without exiting, the succeeding spot would be the 20.  enforce from there.

II) if the action occurred in the end zone, after the runner had exited the end zone, or behind the runner, I wouldn't have a hold.  You might have something for 'player safety', but not a hold.  In which case, the foul occurring in the end zone wouldnt have the rule provision from Holding to award a safety.

I cant really see this ever being a safety.  If the foul occurred in front of the runner, and still in the end zone, the coach should make good use of his boot in the players hind parts for running it out from 9 yrds deep.

[VALJ]

Whether B30 is tackled in the EZ or not, the spot of the takedown determines the enforcement.  If the takedown occurs outside the EZ, the basic spot is the 20 yard line if the tackle is in the end zone, or the end of the run if it is in the field of play.  Enforce under all-but-one.

If the foul occurs in the end zone, and it occured AFTER the change of possession, 2 points for team A.  And B better get Hans ready to kick the ball from the 20.

[Ralph Damren]

VALJ wins the Kewpie doll . Be sure to apply all-but-one to the basic spot...IE....B30's run ends in EZ ,B20 is naughty @ B's 10 after COP = 1st & 10 B @B's 5 ; B30 makes it to B's 4 = 1st & 10 @ B's 2. Monday trivia tester : If B30, as a thoughtful gesture, handed the live ball to A6 @ B's 11, who then ran the ball back into B's EZ for a TD, could B's foul be carried over to the try or KO?

    PS : It's currently snowing in Maine.

[Atlanta Blue]

As VALJ said, it's WHERE the foul took place that matters. 

Virtually all fouls in FED are governed by ABO.  The "one" in ABO are fouls by the offense behind the basic spot.  In a), the basic spot is the 20.  In b), the basic spot is the B10.  Where did the foul take place?  If it occurred behind the basic spot, the enforcement is from the spot of the foul.  If the foul occurred in front of the basic spot, the enforcement is from the basic spot.

If the spot of the foul is in the end zone, it's a safety.  If the spot of the foul is outside the end zone, it's not a safety, see above for enforcement.

Knowing your spots and ABO will almost always get you in the right place.

ADDED IN EDIT:   I was typing while Ralph was posting.  And as to the trivia question, no, B's foul occurred before the last change of possession, so it would not carry over.  A would have to decline the foul to take the TD.

[Ralph Damren]

Once again our favorite coach wins the Kewpie doll ! Congrats, AB...however, I did hear the Falcons were being punished for being naughty. It seems some of the noise at their home games resembled the canned laughter/boos/cheers we old duffers recall from 1950's TV shows and  not sounds from the frenzied masses of Falcon fans.
    What say, you of the Forum........
        Is it worse to let the air out of footballs or let out noise not from human lungs ?
        If you were a mascot, would you prefer to have : claws ,paws ,hooves, or feet  ?

Oh by the way, the rationale of not allowing the carryover of the penalty in the question is that is to prevent a cheap shot by the opponents during a TD run from going unenforced. Here, the foul occurred prior to the last COP ,so it wouldn't be considered as such.

[Atlanta Blue]

Ralph:

Another editorial suggestion: on 8-2-3, add the word LAST to change of possession to make this clear.

EXAMPLE:  A32 is running forward and fumbles the ball.  B16 recovers and starts running.  While B16 is in possession, B12 blocks A16 in the back.  B16 now fumbles, and A32 recovers and runs for TD.

A strict reading of 8-2-3 could suggest the foul carries over.  It was by the opponent of the scoring team, and it did come after "the" change of possession (A32's initial fumble).  But we know it shouldn't based on the philosophy you stated.  Adding the word "last" to change of possession would codify what we believe and clear up any ambiguity.

As to adding crowd noise, yep, we did it.  Funny thing is, I have been in the press box for every Falcons home game for the last 15 years and I never even noticed it.  And based on our record this past year, it certainly didn't help us!  A fine and 5th round draft choice is fair.  The New England Deflatriots should be hit much harder for their cheating.

[Ralph Damren]

Thanks for the editorial suggestion, AB. Makes sense and please remind me to propose it next Fall.
The Deflategate quagmire is said to end shortly with the rumor mill rumoring that of the 11 underinflated balls, 10 were between 12.00 PSI and 12.49 PSI ( nature coulda' done it). The ball that was at 10 PSI was the ball that the Colt d-back kept as a trophy after a Brady pick. One must wonder the travels of that ball once it got to the Colt sidelines.
 Most of Patriot Nation move to Red Sox Nation.
 Since the arrival of the 21st Century.......

          Patriots         

          Red Sox         

          Bruins             

          Celtics             

                  ......and the band played on......

[Atlanta Blue]

I had not heard that rumor.  If 10 of them truly were between 12 and 12.5, then I'm not concerned.  But the original "report" said they were from 1 to 2.5 psi low.  That sounds more conspiratorial.

[Jim D.]

Of course there was spygate and deflategate for the Patriots which make their accomplishments not quite as impressive.