Correcting a down

[Stinterp]

If the box reads 3rd down but it is really 2nd down and the offense runs a play and throws an interception, what do we do?
If the box reads 3rd down but it is really 4th down and the offense runs a play and throws an interception, what do we do?

[Ralph Damren]

Still waiting for NFHS formal interpretations regarding this, but was told on the interpreter's conference call that A would be given the ball back . Waiting to hear more, if it was really 4th down, but played as 3rd down , a fresh new can of worms is opened .......

   MORALE OF STORY : DON'T SCREW UP THE DOWNS!!!!!!

[prab]

We have discussed the following play, which seems to fit into this category, but have not come to a conclusion that we are certain about.

Down marker reads 4th down.  A (K) punts the ball which is recovered by B (R) with no further complications.  It is then discovered that it was actually 3rd down.  Who gets the ball and where?

[AlUpstateNY]

After confirming the correct down situation with the R, instruct the Down Box Holder to correct his display ( and if it was his fault, ask him to pay better attention). 

The Case Book Reference (5.1.1.a) "until a new series of downs is awarded" relates to an error causing misunderstanding of the down, NOT by action determined during an, otherwise, authorized down.  Teams are ENTIRELY [/i]responsible for determining which play is being called during each down and being aware of the correct down is part of that RESPONSIBILITY.

NF: 3-11 provides for "a player (directed by his Coach, or Head Coach) to request and be granted a time-out for the purpose of the Coach and the Referee reviewing a decision  which may have resulted from the misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule, provided the request is made prior to the time the ball becomes live following the play to be reviewed..."

With the exception of 5th downs, mistakes with the down box DO NOT authorize "Do overs".

[Stinterp]

What if the box reads 4th down but it is really 5th down and the offense runs a play and throws an interception, what do we do?

[Ralph Damren]

We have discussed the following play, which seems to fit into this category, but have not come to a conclusion that we are certain about.

Down marker reads 4th down.  A (K) punts the ball which is recovered by B (R) with no further complications.  It is then discovered that it was actually 3rd down.  Who gets the ball and where?

My understanding is A/K would get the ball back and replay 3rd down. I'll keep all advised as I hear further.

[Atlanta Blue]

After confirming the correct down situation with the R, instruct the Down Box Holder to correct his display ( and if it was his fault, ask him to pay better attention). 

The Case Book Reference (5.1.1.a) "until a new series of downs is awarded" relates to an error causing misunderstanding of the down, NOT by action determined during an, otherwise, authorized down.  Teams are ENTIRELY [/i]responsible for determining which play is being called during each down and being aware of the correct down is part of that RESPONSIBILITY.

NF: 3-11 provides for "a player (directed by his Coach, or Head Coach) to request and be granted a time-out for the purpose of the Coach and the Referee reviewing a decision  which may have resulted from the misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule, provided the request is made prior to the time the ball becomes live following the play to be reviewed..."

With the exception of 5th downs, mistakes with the down box DO NOT authorize "Do overs".

Not saying I disagree, but that isn't what appears to be coming out of the interpreters call. 

And if we require a team that punted on 3rd down to live with that decision when the box mistakenly said 4th, then I think they should get the benefit of any 5th down if the box mistakenly said 4th.

[AlUpstateNY]

We can only hope we're not heading for a "nanny state" on HS football fields.  What ever happens, good or bad (which depends entirely on which side of the field you're on) during a 5th down, SIMPLY SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED, and the simplest, and fairest, solution is SHOULDN'T COUNT.

Misreading 2nd or 3rd down and misunderstanding it as 4th down, is SIMPLY; A MISTAKE, which could be made by either team, and, like most mistakes, present unfortunate consequences.  Football is a wonderful, and often complicated game which requires EVERYONE to pay attention to a lot of different things. 

Misunderstanding, or misreading, a Down is one of those mistakes that should ABSOLUTELY NEVER happen to an official or a coach, more than once, because if it happens that one time, it should burn scar tissue deep into your rear end that should NEVER permit you to forget the embarrassment and pain of doing so. Knowing that SHOULD likely prevent that first mistake from happening.

There are always reasons to leave ANY and ALL boxes Pandora leaves around, closed, hopefully our interpreters, and rule makers, will remember that. 

[FLAHL]

When I worked the chains, I asked the "Boxman" to talk out loud every time he flipped the down marker.  Hearing "I got 2 on the box" or "I got 3 on the box" behind me before every down was very reassuring.  Unfortunately, the willingness/ability of the Boxman to cooperate varies greatly.

[wvoref]

Don't know if this is common practice or not but before giving the ready for play I would look at the down box and if it was incorrect I would have it corrected before giving ready for play. Now what showed on scoreboard was anybody's guess. But by always checking down box first that insured that if there were a foul up it belonged to our crew (thank heavens never had one) and not the fault of someone on the chain crew.

[RGraydonR]

Still waiting for NFHS formal interpretations regarding this, but was told on the interpreter's conference call that A would be given the ball back . Waiting to hear more, if it was really 4th down, but played as 3rd down , a fresh new can of worms is opened .......

   MORALE OF STORY : DON'T SCREW UP THE DOWNS!!!!!!

Ralph, you are correct, at least in California.  Got this from the CIF.
"Any change of possession that occurs during an improper down, including fumble recoveries, interceptions, and scoring plays ARE REMOVED when an improper down is corrected."  Ouch.

One question I had was: what if an improper down (a "5th down") is run, or, worst case scenario, 2 or 3 plays (a TD on a 5th down followed by a try then a kickoff that is legally touched and run back) takes 20-25 seconds off the clock before the problem is found and corrected. Do we then put those seconds back on the clock--assuming, optimistically, that we KNOW how much time ran off the clock? Going back in time and "correcting" what happened.  Wow.

[Stinterp]

Yes I believe under 3.3.5d and 3.4.7 we have the right to correct timing.

[riffraft]

When I worked the chains, I asked the "Boxman" to talk out loud every time he flipped the down marker.  Hearing "I got 2 on the box" or "I got 3 on the box" behind me before every down was very reassuring.  Unfortunately, the willingness/ability of the Boxman to cooperate varies greatly.

I do it the opposite way. On just about every down I will say "John do you have 3 on the box", etc.

[bkdow]

A lot of unknown about this.  Our meeting last night (with a state representative) said the same as Ralph....more information to follow.  First game in 17 days, hope it is resolved but if it is not, I'm going to make sure we are all the same page with the down.

[prab]

A lot of unknown about this.  Our meeting last night (with a state representative) said the same as Ralph....more information to follow.  First game in 17 days, hope it is resolved but if it is not, I'm going to make sure we are all the same page with the down.

AMEN!

[AlUpstateNY]

Creating, or opening up, a never ending "do over" box would be "an accident waiting to happen".

[FLAHL]

I'm thinking of two very different scenarios here.  The first one is that the game officials truly lose track of the down. I think we all agree that this would be an unforgivable error and something that absolutely should never occur.  But if it does, we follow the rules as instructed.

The second scenario is this - all officials, players, and coaches know that it's 3rd down.  The play is called and run based on correct info.  But the Boxman flipped the down marker in the wrong direction and changed 2nd down to 1st instead of 3rd.  As a former HL, I know this has happened to me.  WV's suggestion of verifying the down before blowing the RFP is a great suggestion, but still not foolproof as the Boxman still has 25 seconds to do something incorrect with the down indicator - could be as simple as he forgot that he already advanced it, so he advances it again.  Now what?  Does the coach, by rule, have the ability to ask for the down to be replayed because the down indicator was incorrect?  (The quality of the chain crews in our area varies greatly from school to school and from week to week.)

Now think about JV games with chain crews that are volunteers from the stands, players who are not playing that night for some reason, or others who would rather read their text messages than concentrate on the game.  Talk about a "never ending do over." 

[wvoref]

Hopefully this is much ado about nothing. 34 years and never had a problem with wrong down (at least as far as I know). Most likely scenario I can foresee is if one of us old far## uh make that oldtimers forgets OPI isn't a loss of down anymore and then either the coach or one of the younger crew guys wakes up and says Hey we screwed that up and the down is wrong. so like everybody else says keep track of the downs and it should never come into play. All in all this rule change strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and unfortunately has the potential to cause larger problems than it solves.

[bama_stripes]

As the R, I always check the box before the RFP.  Even having an experienced HL on my crew, I occasionally catch an error.

[Jim D]

I've flipped a down wrong before.  They changed they way the box works (the indicator tabs used to move one direction from 1st through 4th, and then they reversed it).  After a punt, having everyone set up and ready to go with a big old "4" on the box is not unusual for a short period - everybody in the place, including the box man, knows it's really 1st down.

For lower level games I've had to get 'volunteers' out of the stands, and then repeat the process for the second half.

[wvoref]

As the R, I always check the box before the RFP.  Even having an experienced HL on my crew, I occasionally catch an error.

This is why I always checked it before RFP like you do. Many times my HL had the right down, the chain crew member thought he had the right down, but the down box itself showed the wrong down because the HL and down box man usually aren't looking directly at it, they didn't realize it was incorrect.

[AlUpstateNY]

As the R, I always check the box before the RFP.  Even having an experienced HL on my crew, I occasionally catch an error.

I presumed EVERY Referee, in EVERY game, on EVERY down, at EVERY level glanced at the down box to verify it, and the Referee's down number matched.  When those numbers don't match, SOMEONE made a mistake.  Like a land mine, better to make sure where the problem is, than guess and take a chance on stepping on it (in it).

[dch]

The rules and the case books seem to agree.  The Referee has the authority to correct the number of the next down.  If a 5th down was awarded the "correction" would revert back to where the ball was before the "extra" play was run and B would be awarded the ball because A hadn't gained a first down.
Any other error by the down box, scoreboard, or officials may be "corrected" by the Referee declaring the proper next down.  Whatever happened on the disputed down stands.  NO DO-OVERS !!

We certainly aren't going to allow a do-over if the home team down box or scoreboard conveniently displayed the wrong down at a critical point of the game and the play just doesn't work out in their favor.

The rules book and the case book do have a slightly different time frame as to when it is too late for a correction.  Case book says until a new series is awarded.  Rules book says until the ball becomes alive after a new series is awarded.

[wvoref]

Here is my key to the down box. The only way the down box should show the wrong down is if the officials have the wrong down. Prior to giving the ready for play I display by hand signal the next down and announce (not over the PA) the next down and check the down box. If it shows the wrong down I make sure to correct it. I don't care what the scoreboard says and if somehow the down box man changes the down box after the ready for play we are still going with what the down really was and perhaps removing a chain crew member. The only way I see this correction coming into play is if we the officials have it wrong

[Atlanta Blue]

The rules and the case books seem to agree.  The Referee has the authority to correct the number of the next down.  If a 5th down was awarded the "correction" would revert back to where the ball was before the "extra" play was run and B would be awarded the ball because A hadn't gained a first down.
Any other error by the down box, scoreboard, or officials may be "corrected" by the Referee declaring the proper next down.  Whatever happened on the disputed down stands.  NO DO-OVERS !!

We certainly aren't going to allow a do-over if the home team down box or scoreboard conveniently displayed the wrong down at a critical point of the game and the play just doesn't work out in their favor.

The rules book and the case book do have a slightly different time frame as to when it is too late for a correction.  Case book says until a new series is awarded.  Rules book says until the ball becomes alive after a new series is awarded.

Not saying I disagree, but I think you are going to be in for a big surprise when the NFHS issues their interpretation.