The new rule will........

[ted skoundrianos]

Ralph, would you favor illegal fomation & encroachment on free-kicks live-ball fouls.

[NVFOA_Ump]

NFHS rules prioritize safety.  The theory is that kickoffs are inherently more dangerous than scrimmage plays, so the live-ball fouls would lessen the number of kickoffs.

Except if you kill the play immediately with the DB foul there is no real "kick-off" and no "re-play".

[lawdog]

NFHS rules prioritize safety.  The theory is that kickoffs are inherently more dangerous than scrimmage plays, so the live-ball fouls would lessen the number of kickoffs.

How in the world would it lessen them?  It would increase the number of kicks.  You would be re-kicking on these penalties often.  Instead shut it down and don't have the first kick. 

[ElvisLives]

You don’t have the ability to enforce kicking team fouls that occur during the kick play portion of the down at the succeeding spot (technically, the “spot where the dead ball belongs to the receiving team”)? If not, that’s too bad. Then you don’t have to re-kick, and the kicking team still gets penalized. That would apply to any foul by the kicking team (offside, illegal formation, blocks below the waist, blocks in the back - anything) that happens between the time the toe hits the ball until the point where somebody catches/recovers the ball, or it goes OB. Of course, fouls by either team during the runback are penalized per “all but one.”
Something to think about, if you don’t already have that ability.

[bama_stripes]

How in the world would it lessen them?  It would increase the number of kicks.  You would be re-kicking on these penalties often.  Instead shut it down and don't have the first kick.

The perceived problem is that by the time the calling official realizes that K has encroached and blown his whistle, contact has often already occurred.

I suppose that NFHS could do away with kickoffs altogether, if they really wanted.  Spot the ball at some arbitrary yard line, unless K wants to attempt an onside kick.

[ted skoundrianos]

ElvisLives, If you change the rule on illegal formation and encroachment to live-ball fouls it would be added to the kick just like the other fouls on kicking team.

[ElvisLives]

ElvisLives, If you change the rule on illegal formation and encroachment to live-ball fouls it would be added to the kick just like the other fouls on kicking team.

Then why not? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[NVFOA_Ump]

The perceived problem is that by the time the calling official realizes that K has encroached and blown his whistle, contact has often already occurred.

Except that in my experience it's just that a "perceived problem" problem.  In reality the whistle is blown long before any serious contact occurs. I see not real need to "fix" a rule when we rarely see the foul occur.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, you would still have a situation where 6-1-3b would shut the play down if a K non-kicker is behind his 35 after RFP but before the kick. 6-1-4 : "At the time the ball is kicked, at least 4 K players must be on each side of the kicker." tells us the ball has to be kicked before the  throw & blow. I learned my lesson last year by authoring fouls by B when run ends behind the LOS = previous spot. With the complexity that then developed, left me feeling like Dr. Frankenstien after his invention turned into a monster.  Now K fouls prior to/at time of kick are dead ball fouls. We Mainers say: "Ayuh, 'spect best to let a sleeping dawg lay  " I think I'll stay away from this one.

[ted skoundrianos]

Ralph, even you said you like the propose rule change on kickoffs making it a live-ball offside. Also the coaches & officials like that propose rule change. I know it offside on kicking team would be rare to call. But when PSK came in 2003. In 21 years I worked high school football I only seen it called 3 times. The nfl you seen it on almost every punt. The same thing if you change  illegal formation & encroachment on kickoffs. To live-ball fouls. It would be rare call but still have in the rule book.

[ElvisLives]

Y'all say 'rare,' regarding offside by the kicking team. Really? OK, it is a dead-ball foul in NFHS. But I would have a very difficult time believing that it is rare. I can't be specific about statistics, but I'd venture to guess that offside (by the kicking team) occurs on about 10% of onside kick attempts. (A bit less on other free kicks.) Infrequent, but hardly rare. Are NFHS players so good that they are 'rarely' offside on onside kick attempts (which, by current rule, would seem to cause the ball to remain dead, and a penalty enforced)? I suppose that could be the case. But I am skeptical.

[bama_stripes]

Y'all say 'rare,' regarding offside by the kicking team. Really? OK, it is a dead-ball foul in NFHS. But I would have a very difficult time believing that it is rare. I can't be specific about statistics, but I'd venture to guess that offside (by the kicking team) occurs on about 10% of onside kick attempts. (A bit less on other free kicks.) Infrequent, but hardly rare. Are NFHS players so good that they are 'rarely' offside on onside kick attempts (which, by current rule, would seem to cause the ball to remain dead, and a penalty enforced)? I suppose that could be the case. But I am skeptical.

In my experience, encroachment by K on “regular” kickoffs is flagged about twice a season in games I call.  Considering the number of kickoffs, I’d say that’s fairly rare.

I’m sure the percentage rises on onside kickoffs, since K is trying desperately to recover the kick.  However, contact between opposing players is rarely as violent due to the limited distance between opposing players.

[Ralph Damren]

While in Maine we have 78 schools with football, 29 are of the 8-man variety. A high pct. of free kicks in 8-man seem to be squib/onside variety. A vet coach told me that is the safest route then to kick to a good broken field runner.  Encroachment is more prevalent there and the BJ is reminded to be ready. not having 4 (3 in 8-man) on each side of the kicker is also considered encroachment per 2-8 and can't occur until the ball is kicked and remember R can also encroach on a free kick. Only the kicker can be beyond 5 yards behind K's restraining line after RFP and that, like a false start, is a dead ball foul upon occurance.

Confused, anyone       

[NVFOA_Ump]

I'd tend to focus on fixing things that really need to be fixed?  Rule 10 anyone?

[Ralph Damren]

I'd tend to focus on fixing things that really need to be fixed?  Rule 10 anyone?

The repair crew (Editorial Committee) worked diligently on that and the finished product will be unvailed (published) when the 2024 Rules Book arrives. I'll keep my eyes/ears open and pass on to your guys if I hear/see anything.

[lawdog]

The repair crew (Editorial Committee) worked diligently on that

Same ones that wrote it wrong to start with...

[lawdog]

ElvisLives, If you change the rule on illegal formation and encroachment to live-ball fouls it would be added to the kick just like the other fouls on kicking team.

Which would be another change.  Tack on now is at the option of the offended team, so not an automatic tack on.  We don't have automatic tack on now which is why there could be more re-kicks.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Which would be another change.  Tack on now is at the option of the offended team, so not an automatic tack on.  We don't have automatic tack on now which is why there could be more re-kicks.

Which is another reason that I like the "keep it simple" mantra.  Simply keep all fouls that occur prior to the ball becoming live as DB fouls. Simply enforce the penalty at the offended teams option and move on.  No replays, re-kicks, or other things to sort out.  Again, I believe that if it's not broken it doesn't need to be "fixed".  For the very few times a year that the foul on free kicks actually occurs IMHO it's not worth even discussing.

[AlUpstateNY]

Which is another reason that I like the "keep it simple" mantra.  Simply keep all fouls that occur prior to the ball becoming live as DB fouls. Simply enforce the penalty at the offended teams option and move on.  No replays, re-kicks, or other things to sort out.  Again, I believe that if it's not broken it doesn't need to be "fixed".  For the very few times a year that the foul on free kicks actually occurs IMHO it's not worth even discussing.

"Keep it simple", what a novel concept.

[ncwingman]

The repair crew (Editorial Committee) worked diligently on that and the finished product will be unvailed (published) when the 2024 Rules Book arrives. I'll keep my eyes/ears open and pass on to your guys if I hear/see anything.

I do wish rule books were made available earlier than July though. Where I am, we register with the state and they mail us books when available, and it's not uncommon that our first rules clinics start up a week or two before books arrive. I know the logistics of printing and shipping aren't necessarily simple to solve, but starting the whole process a week or two earlier to get the end result in our hands a week or two earlier seems like it might be worth looking into -- at least on my end.

Of course, those officials that wait until July (or August...) to register, and therefore get their books even later is a different problem.

At the very least, maybe the specific editorial changes could be published online when done and heading to the printers? And I mean more than just "There will be an editorial change to Rule 10-4" like they do now, and not the whole book, just the new verbiage.

[Etref]

In this day and age I have one word for rules makers and books


DIGITAL

[ncwingman]

In this day and age I have one word for rules makers and books


DIGITAL

Yeah, we got access to the NFHS app with the rule books for free the last few years, but they still have the same publication date. The updated ebooks weren't out any earlier -- or, at least our free access through the state was authorized when they shipped the books, which may have been the state's doing and it was available from NFHS earlier.

Of course, last year they changed the app they were using and it turned into a completely unusable pile of garbage... also a different problem.

[dammitbobby]

They need to bake the cost into MFHS membership dues and just make it freely available as PDF.  Problem solved, no special app or DRM needed.

[NVFOA_Ump]

They need to bake the cost into MFHS membership dues and just make it freely available as PDF.  Problem solved, no special app or DRM needed.

But all of the states would have to universally do that for that to work.

[AlUpstateNY]

They need to bake the cost into MFHS membership dues and just make it freely available as PDF.  Problem solved, no special app or DRM needed.

Some wise man noted "Life's a bitch, then you die" & "patience" is still a virtue.  Christmas is still only once a year, but generates a lot of useful anticipation and focus waiting for the big day.