QB Kneel Down At Game End

[FBUmp]

What I have wanted to do in these situations is have our QB take the snap while kneeling behind the center.  As soon as he possesses the ball, the play is dead.  Can't find any rule that would prohibit it.

There isn't one. I've often wondered why this isn't has it's always done.

[ECILLJ]

There's no travesty.   

Coach of Team A to LJ, "We are taking a knee, did you hear me we are taking a knee".

LJ, "I heard you coach".

Coach, "Did you tell the other officials? We need some protection."

LJ to R, "Team A is taking a knee".

R to U, "Have 'em play smart, they tell us they are taking a knee."

U to Team B, "Play smart, they are taking a knee".

Coach of Team A yells a play change to his QB and yells to the LJ, "We are not taking a knee".

Team A takes the snap and acts as if he is taking a knee and then he runs around the end for a score.

Coach of Team B is now going ballistic, "You told us they were taking a knee."

9.5 If the crew chooses to flag Team A for unsportsmanlike conduct, then 9.5 Travesty is the rule that supports their decision.

AB, In a perfect world we should not tell them they are taking a knee. Most officials (HS to YFB) across the country, when asked by a coach, convey this as a common courtesy for safety. When a coach or player takes advantage of us to create an unfair advantage over their opponent, then I do believe a travesty has been committed.

Ralph, Thanks for addressing this with the NFHS!

[Atlanta Blue]

Coach of Team A to LJ, "We are taking a knee, did you hear me we are taking a knee".

LJ, "I heard you coach".

Then add:  "You had better tell your offense to keep blocking, as the defense will still be playing."

I still think the best answer is to ignore him altogether.

If you need to say anything to the defense, just say something like, "Let's play smart, guys."  There is never any need to get into the specifics of the play.  If his QB needs "protecting", it's up to his linemen to do it.

[ALStripes17]

Team A takes the snap and acts as if he is taking a knee and then he runs around the end for a score.

Is there any rule in NFHS that says the snap receiving back is considered down if he fakes taking a knee?

[HLinNC]

Is there any rule in NFHS that says the snap receiving back is considered down if he fakes taking a knee?

no

[maven]

Is there any rule in NFHS that says the snap receiving back is considered down if he fakes taking a knee?

No. But you know, my eyes aren't that good, and if he "fakes" it I usually see that knee touch the ground!

[James]

As sportsmanship is (Was) sometimes lacking in these adult amateur leagues that we officiate in Germany - There are sometimes so real hot heads who think there are no rules in the game - there were some problems with players taking cheap shots on kneel-down plays. The players would have been ejected, but there was the real danger of injuries (jumping in peoples knees and stuff)
Our area has instigated (started before my time) that if O declares they will take a knee that the D is not to charge. Hard contact by a D player will be penalized, probably by ejection. Running a play from O would be whistled dead and flagged as USC.

That is how they want it here, so we do it like that. I realize it is not supported by the NCAA rulebook, but I guess you could call it a local addition.

[Atlanta Blue]

As sportsmanship is (Was) sometimes lacking in these adult amateur leagues that we officiate in Germany - There are sometimes so real hot heads who think there are no rules in the game - there were some problems with players taking cheap shots on kneel-down plays. The players would have been ejected, but there was the real danger of injuries (jumping in peoples knees and stuff)
Our area has instigated (started before my time) that if O declares they will take a knee that the D is not to charge. Hard contact by a D player will be penalized, probably by ejection. Running a play from O would be whistled dead and flagged as USC.

That is how they want it here, so we do it like that. I realize it is not supported by the NCAA rulebook, but I guess you could call it a local addition.

If they are going to go to all that trouble of changing the rule, why not just eliminate the snap all together?

[Tom.OH]

Here we go again:


Don't tell the defense what the offense is going to do!  EVER!!!

AB, I know that I did edit a lot but i want to focus on this one statement.
Your QB is the GA player of the year, a D1 school has signed him up. Looking in my crystal ball he will have a stunning 4 years in college, he will be the first round pick in the NFL draft. After a fantastic 14 year career in the NFL including 3 Super Bowl wins he is elected to the Hall of Fame.
Now how did he get there,
It's the last play of your game in the state finals, all you need is one kneel and you are state champs!
Your QB and the best place kicker in the nation (due to your coaching) is ready to tiake the snap.
The ball is snapped and as the QB is taking that last kneel down, a linebacker crashes into him and breaks his back. He will never walk again. That college and pro career I recounted above is gone, all because the officials did not tell the defense they were taking a knee.
Yes I know my creative writing skills may not be the best what if it did happen, somewhere...

I do agree with you, the officials should not have to say anything, it should be the coaches that come up with some way to fix this situation.

[HLinNC]

"The ball is snapped and as the QB is taking that last kneel down, a linebacker crashes into him and breaks his back. He will never walk again. That college and pro career I recounted above is gone, all because the officials did not tell the defense they were taking a knee."

Horse $#!]

Was the defense the state school for the blind? 

[Atlanta Blue]

And how did this kid get to be that good of a QB with that poor of an offensive line in front of him?

Look, if the QB takes a knee, it's not up to the defense to let up from playing legal football.  It's up to the offense to keep playing.  If the coach tells you he's taking a knee, then tell him that his offensive line better not quit playing.

And if me All-Everything QB was that good, I would send in the JV running back to take the snap and get on the ground.

[bama_stripes]

Presto!  See the end of the UGA - FL game?

[AlUpstateNY]

Perhaps others involved in scholastic level sports don't have access to the "Prerequisits for good Officiating",  contained in the "Basic Phiolosophy & Principles" of the NFHS Officials Manual, which advise;

"In addition to a complete mastery of the rules, game officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise.

Football is a game played played by physically sound athletes blocking and tackling one another.

At times, the emotions of players, coaches and crowds run high, and game officials must control themselves in order to provide necessary leadership.

Game officials must have a football sense that supercedes the technical application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly.

The protection and safety of the player is paramount and with this there can be no compromise."

With all that in mind, perhaps the best way to deal with the ending circumstances of a particular game, is to leave some judgment in the hands of the Referee, who has dealt with that particular game, the participants and the emotions, rather than try and define a "One size fits all situations alike" scenario.

[JasonTX]

Why even require the snap if some of you are basically telling the defense not to play the down.  Let's just declare it over and game over if the defense doesn't have timeouts.  It's like an intentional walk in NFHS baseball.  The pitcher doesn't have to throw 4 balls to put the batter on base.  He just tells the Umpire to put him on.  Football can have a similar rule.  No need to snap it, just allow the play clock to run down to 24 seconds and then pretend as if they did snap it and run X number of seconds to run off and then make the ball ready for play again until the game is over.

Or.  Just snap the ball and have your linemen block for you.  I have seen my share of muffed snaps in these situations and luckily for the defense they were coming in hard and have recovered the ball on some of those to set up a potential game winning play for themselves.  Imagine if I would have told them not to do anything they would have never had that chance.

[Kalle]

I fully agree with JasonTX. It is not our job to tell the players what they should do. If the difference is more than eight points and the offense can run the time out by taking a knee, I do think a defense coach is pretty stupid to have his line rush in, but dealing with that is up to the coaches and their employers. If the difference is less than nine, the defense has a valid reason to rush in, and the offense just has to be able to deal with that.

Any illegal action after the ball becomes dead will obviously be penalized and will be considered flagrant easier than in other situations.

Obviously your rules makers can change the rules such as James outlined below, but in those situations I'd rather have the rules changed so that if the offense can run the game clock down with just the 25 second play clocks (40 for us NCAAish folks), then the game is immediately over. No reason to fool around on the field. This is actually how I deal with lower level games where there is no visible game clock and the score difference is large.

[prab]

I had requested that the Officials Mannual Committee address this issue, and they will in the 2014-15 edition.

Ralph,

Did the Officials Manual Committee in fact address this issue for the 2014 - 2015 edition?

[Ralph Damren]

It was on their agenda and I sat in at the start of their meeting (1 PM) but had to leave before it came up to catch a flight. Getting back to Bangor was more important then to hear the "victory formation" discussed but I did remind the chairman of the Game Officials Manual Committee that we wanted advice on it. I'm sure it'll be addressed.

[HLinNC]

the "victory formation"

Some of the spread teams I call don't even have such a thing.  They line their QB up in the pistol no matter the situation.   I think it's a little crazy because one never knows when that next errant snap will occur but they are apparently willing to live with it.

[OkieZebra]

Some of the spread teams I call don't even have such a thing.  They line their QB up in the pistol no matter the situation.   I think it's a little crazy because one never knows when that next errant snap will occur but they are apparently willing to live with it.

Well, OSU had a problem back when Brandon Weeden was a 'young' QB there. 2010 against Troy and up by 3. He took a snap under center in the victory formation and fumbled it for a turnover. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQz4BFbgARI

They very luckily got the ball back on the next play. They then took two snaps from a shotgun victory formation and kept doing so while Weeden was the QB. He just didn't ever practice under center snaps in that offense and they had the yardage to play with.

[SD_Casey]

Same as many others on here,  I say nothing to the defense.

I tell the offense that they had better keep blocking for their quarterback because the defense is still playing.

Usually elicits a "yeah guys" from the QB.

[AlUpstateNY]

There's no travesty.  That's the kind of call that ends careers, or at least any post season hopes.

Fortunately, the Rules Makers have declined to include a definition  of "Travesty" in Rule 2, leaving that determination to "the eye of the beholder", who in this situation would be the Referee, to whom, Rule 1-1-6 provides, "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.", which, by and large, has worked extremely well for over 100 years.

When "it ain't broke, there really isn't any need to fix anything".

[Atlanta Blue]

Fortunately, the Rules Makers have declined to include a definition  of "Travesty" in Rule 2, leaving that determination to "the eye of the beholder", who in this situation would be the Referee, to whom, Rule 1-1-6 provides, "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.", which, by and large, has worked extremely well for over 100 years.

When "it ain't broke, there really isn't any need to fix anything".

And even more fortunately, we have a state association that if they got wind of an official with such poor judgment, one that decided to make up his own rules, they would be sure his career would include no playoffs, and his association would be sure he was working a lot of JV football before getting a Varsity game again.

Just because a Referee can "play god" doesn't mean he should.

[AlUpstateNY]

Just because a Referee can "play god" doesn't mean he should.

Agreed, but this has nothing to do with anyone "playing God".  If there is any effort to imitate divinity, it would either be a misguided student athlete, who would hopefully be seriously repremanded by his Coach, or Heaven forbid, it was actually a Coach promoting such a willful, unproductive and inappropriate deception, it might simply be an honest arbiter concerned about the integrity of a game abiding by his charter and his interpretation of the authority specified in NFHS:1-1-6.

[wvoref]

From the Ohio Gold Book  "Victory Formation Mechanics
A. Definition  Winning team HC informs officials we are "going to take a knee".  Opponent is out of team time-outs or tell Wing that we will not use them.  Winning team is ahead by 9 or more points.  Or, losing team says we are okay with them taking a knee.
B. CREW  Officials pinch in close.  R/U inform A & B that A will take a knee-nothing rough. QB has protection once his team indicates he will take a knee.  R inform QB he MUST take a knee IMMEDIATELY-no fakes.  If he fakes & does not take a knee it is an Unfair Act.
C.  CREW  Ask winning team HC if his team will take a knee, score/time dictates this.  If yes Wing informs losing team HC.  Inform all players loudly.

Anyone familiar with the Ohio Gold Book will understand that Ohio has developed many mechanics unique to Ohio that are often a hybrid of NCAA/NFL/NFHS mechanics.

[bama_stripes]

From the Ohio Gold Book  "Victory Formation Mechanics
A. Definition  Winning team HC informs officials we are "going to take a knee".  Opponent is out of team time-outs or tell Wing that we will not use them.  Winning team is ahead by 9 or more points.  Or, losing team says we are okay with them taking a knee.
B. CREW  Officials pinch in close.  R/U inform A & B that A will take a knee-nothing rough. QB has protection once his team indicates he will take a knee.  R inform QB he MUST take a knee IMMEDIATELY-no fakes.  If he fakes & does not take a knee it is an Unfair Act.
C.  CREW  Ask winning team HC if his team will take a knee, score/time dictates this.  If yes Wing informs losing team HC.  Inform all players loudly.

Anyone familiar with the Ohio Gold Book will understand that Ohio has developed many mechanics unique to Ohio that are often a hybrid of NCAA/NFL/NFHS mechanics.

Good grief.