Two to chew on.....

[Ralph Damren]

I had 2 situations in my Friday night game that I wanted to get your opinions on :

(1) Kickoff return by R1;
(2) R1 is grabbed by K1 @ R'30;
(3) Before his forward progress is stopped R2 rips the ball out of his hands;
(4) R2 is in advance of R1 at the time;
(5) R2 goes for TD.

I conference with the two covering officials and was told R2 ripped the ball out of R1's hands.

Illegal forward handing...or not...you make the call

Later in the same game, with A @ B-30 1/10 ;

(1) B1 intercepts pass and goes for TD;
(2) U & I have flags for blindside block @ A'30 before score;
(3) A flag is then noticed back @ LOS;
(4) the wing informs me that B was "offsides";
(5) I announced to the frenzied masses that what they just saw was an optical illusion and never occurred as the ball had became dead with the encroachment;
(6) it was now 1/5  A @ B's 25.

A few plays later, my brain began to function ,and I felt I should have considered the BSB - a personal foul - as a dead ball foul and tacked that on, too.

Would you....or wouldn't you....you make the call...

[CalhounLJ]

On the first one I have illegal forward handing. Regardless of who initiated the action, the ball was transferred to a teammate forward beyond the los.

On the second, the first thing I’m gonna do is blast my wing for not blowing his whistle. On the blindside block, I’m ignoring it. The only thing I would call a dead ball foul in this situation is a bonafide dead ball foul. Or USC.


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[BIG DON]

I had 2 situations in my Friday night game that I wanted to get your opinions on :

(1) Kickoff return by R1;
(2) R1 is grabbed by K1 @ R'30;
(3) Before his forward progress is stopped R2 rips the ball out of his hands;
(4) R2 is in advance of R1 at the time;
(5) R2 goes for TD.

I conference with the two covering officials and was told R2 ripped the ball out of R1's hands.

Illegal forward handing...or not...you make the call

I say that you do have Illegal forward handoff  5 yards from the spot of the foul which I am assuming is R's 30, 1-10 from R 25 

Later in the same game, with A @ B-30 1/10 ;

(1) B1 intercepts pass and goes for TD;
(2) U & I have flags for blindside block @ A'30 before score;
(3) A flag is then noticed back @ LOS;
(4) the wing informs me that B was "offsides";
(5) I announced to the frenzied masses that what they just saw was an optical illusion and never occurred as the ball had became dead with the encroachment;
(6) it was now 1/5  A @ B's 25.

A few plays later, my brain began to function ,and I felt I should have considered the BSB - a personal foul - as a dead ball foul and tacked that on, too.

Would you....or wouldn't you....you make the call...

this play right here is why I go over restraining line fouls with my crew every pregame and even during halftime.  Nothing good ever come out of a play that should have been blown dead to start with.
I would have to say yes on the dead ball personal fouls While the play never happened you can not give a free pass for a cheap shots during dead ball periods
but that being said you may end up giving a USC foul against the coach as well because he will not be happy 

[FLAHL]

You had an eventful Friday Ralph.

In the first scenario, I have illegal handling.  IMO, whether R1 handed it or R2 grabbed it, it was still handed forward.  “Handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass. Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handing is a fumble.”

In the second scenario, again IMO, B was punished enough.  No need to hit them with 15 more.  Also, I hope you wing official is buying post game beverages until Halloween. 

[red viking]

For the second scenario I had something similar happen. B intercepted the ball. May have been even worse though because in my situation it was A that was offsides. I had a discussion with the wing official at halftime but waived off the flag because it wasn't very obvious and we decided that we could have warned A instead. I know that isn't the way I'm supposed to do it but a better and fairer way to go if the foul wasn't extremely obvious.

[markrischard]

In the first case, I'd go with IFH.

The second case presents a dilemma. Do we ignore player safety fouls when the play should have never happened? I'm leaning towards enforcing the IBSB, as a personal foul,  even though it won't be very popular. I think I can explain player safety, and live with the resultant complaints. I'd have a very long fuse with the coach that got the raw end of the deal. As officials, sometimes we just can't unscrew the pooch. We just have to admit a mistake was made, and move on. 

[AlUpstateNY]

For the second scenario I had something similar happen. B intercepted the ball. May have been even worse though because in my situation it was A that was offsides. I had a discussion with the wing official at halftime but waived off the flag because it wasn't very obvious and we decided that we could have warned A instead. I know that isn't the way I'm supposed to do it but a better and fairer way to go if the foul wasn't extremely obvious.

I agree with your logic.  You made a decision based on reviewing and considering what was actually observed.  As the encroachment infraction (by either team) killed the play, a judgment was made as to the contact during the subsequent dead ball was a "foul", or a "FOUL" and "preventive officiating" was a sufficient remedy, based on this specific event.

[Ralph Damren]

We discussed these in length at our chapter meeting last night. All were in agreement that 2-19-1 doesn't discriminate between one's ripping of the ball out of a teammate's hands and a plain everyday handoff. It should have been a 5-yarder from the spot of the foul which would have been a guesstimate as no beanbags were dropped.

The 'whoops" play that never should have occurred drew mixed suggestions. Some were firm that DBPFs should ALWAYS be enforced while others felt that the foul ONLY occurred because of our goof.

Personally, I'm kinda' glad that I didn't think of the DBPF until a few plays had passed.

[KDJBBBJ]

I say no dead ball personal foul for the BSB.  The player that initiated the block had no way to know that the ball was dead and even in the eyes of the officials at the time it was a live ball.  Since we "canceled" the play with the offsides that would cancel the touchdown and all "live ball" actions that occurred, not including unsportsmanlike fouls.  IMHO

[brettjr2005]

I say no dead ball personal foul for the BSB.  The player that initiated the block had no way to know that the ball was dead and even in the eyes of the officials at the time it was a live ball.  Since we "canceled" the play with the offsides that would cancel the touchdown and all "live ball" actions that occurred, not including unsportsmanlike fouls.  IMHO

Honestly, I'm not positive which side of the argument I'm on or how I would like myself to rule on this, but since I've been bouncing back and forth with both arguments, I present you the other side of your argument: Yes, we can all agree that the play should have never happened and it's the crew's fault that it did.  But a personal foul isn't a regular live ball foul like holding, it has dead ball enforcement.  Also, the contact is ALWAYS illegal and whether it was during a play, after a play, or during the cheerleader's halftime show is irrelevant because the contact is never allowed.  Again, sorry coach, the play shouldn't have happened, but your player shouldn't be hitting someone like that regardless of live ball or dead ball and we have to enforce these safety fouls.


I don't know, I disagree with myself as I'm typing that out lol unfortunately I can't find anything in the rule book or case book for a situation like this.  They really should put something out for us to reference because I'm sure we've all seen first year officials who get "on TV" on the brain and forget the "blow" part of offsides penalty. 

[Ralph Damren]

Honestly, I'm not positive which side of the argument I'm on or how I would like myself to rule on this, but since I've been bouncing back and forth with both arguments, I present you the other side of your argument: Yes, we can all agree that the play should have never happened and it's the crew's fault that it did.  But a personal foul isn't a regular live ball foul like holding, it has dead ball enforcement.  Also, the contact is ALWAYS illegal and whether it was during a play, after a play, or during the cheerleader's halftime show is irrelevant because the contact is never allowed.  Again, sorry coach, the play shouldn't have happened, but your player shouldn't be hitting someone like that regardless of live ball or dead ball and we have to enforce these safety fouls.


I don't know, I disagree with myself as I'm typing that out lol unfortunately I can't find anything in the rule book or case book for a situation like this.  They really should put something out for us to reference because I'm sure we've all seen first year officials who get "on TV" on the brain and forget the "blow" part of offsides penalty.

Adding rules to cover/correct official's goofs can be challenging. A few years ago, with 3-4-8 - the timing error correction rule in mind, it was decided to add 5-1-1b, the downs correction rule. The "what ifs, buts, howevers, whys" that followed made many of us realize that we had made an error in trying to correct that error. The following year, a proposal to have a rule correcting an error in placing the stakes arose. It quickly failed. Sometimes not having a rule and applying 1-1-6 when necessary ,when screwy things occur, may be the best and fairest way to go.

[AlUpstateNY]

Adding rules to cover/correct official's goofs can be challenging. . Sometimes not having a rule and applying 1-1-6 when necessary ,when screwy things occur, may be the best and fairest way to go.

AMEN, and well said.  Common sense and the courage and willingness to apply it when necessary, are two of our most important characteristics.

[CalhounLJ]

I remember a discussion on this board years ago about a holding foul in the endzone AFTER the TD. Someone made the statement that if the foul was something that could only be called while the ball was live, then it was no foul. However, if the foulcould be construed as forceful enough to be a dead ball personal foul, we should call it. I think that's the central argument in Brett's post. If so, I agree. a "normal" hold or BIB or such should be ignored as they can only happen with a live ball. But, if the foul rises to the level of dead ball personal foul, we should flag it..

[Ralph Damren]

AMEN, and well said.  Common sense and the courage and willingness to apply it when necessary, are two of our most important characteristics.

Good point, Al, I was a vocal opponent in the proposed "change the chains" rule. In relating the following situation we tripped over a few years prior, it died on the vine :

(1) Hurry-up offense, ball spotted for 1st & 10;
(2) U U steps away from ball;
(3) ball snapped PRIOR to RFP;
(4) flag for DOG;
(5) series now read 1st &15.

Where the foul occurred PRIOR to the RFP, the chains should have been reset and remain 1st & 10. IF...now 4th & 4, crew conferences and realizes mistake. The WH announces.....

FIRST DOWN....!!!!

THE CREW DIDN'T CONFERENCE AND DIDN'T REALIZE THEIR MISTAKE UNTIL OUR WEEKLY MEETING....PROBABLY BETTER THAN TRING TO EXPLAIN TO B'S COACH.

[Ralph Damren]

I remember a discussion on this board years ago about a holding foul in the endzone AFTER the TD. Someone made the statement that if the foul was something that could only be called while the ball was live, then it was no foul. However, if the foulcould be construed as forceful enough to be a dead ball personal foul, we should call it. I think that's the central argument in Brett's post. If so, I agree. a "normal" hold or BIB or such should be ignored as they can only happen with a live ball. But, if the foul rises to the level of dead ball personal foul, we should flag it..

you can't have a dead ball foul unless it qualifies as a personal foul or USC. good point, Calhoun.

[SCHSref]

I had a screw up Friday night as well. I had to dig in the rule book and found something in Rule 10 that ensured me that I was wrong, but it wasn't as obvious as something out of rule 2 where it is just plain as the day is long.

I say that to say this: Here is the definition for forward handing: ART. 2 . . . Forward handing occurs when the runner releases the ball when the entire ball is beyond the yard line where the runner is positioned.

If the ball was ripped from his hands, my question would be did he release it willingly? If not, the case can be made that it was NOT forward handing. It's kind of like the pushing the pile argument.  Is that helping the runner?  Some say yes and some say no.

Also, that DB play for encroachment by B is a major mistake. You are really caught in a tough spot when proper mechanics are not followed.

There was another incident on my game where an IW was blown because the helmet came off a blocker. I hate IWs

[Ralph Damren]

Thanks for sharing ,SCHSref, we all drop some. I once had a veteran coach tell me : "For every mistake you officials make, we coaches make twenty. The difference is we remind you of yours and you don't of ours. !"