Author Topic: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement  (Read 8979 times)

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Offline tyro01

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Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« on: October 16, 2015, 09:04:06 AM »
Here is a play that was bought up from our association.  It has created somewhat of a buzz in regards to the results of the play along with proper enforcement. 


Here is an interesting play provided to me this past week: A81 is fighting thru a tackle at B's 3-yard line. As he is falling forward, B31 punches the ball from his grasp, and a) The ball bounces in the end zone and is batted out of the end zone by B50, or b) B50 bats the ball out of bounds before it touches the ground. Rules that Apply: First we need to know the definition of "batting." Rule 2-2 states, BATTING, is intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand. Simple enough. Rule 2-13-1 FORCE) states, 1) Force is the result or energy exerted by a player which provides movement of the ball. The term force is used only in conjunction with the goal line and in only one direction i.e., from the field of play into the end zone. Initial force results from a carry, fumble, kick pass or snap. After a fumble, kick or backward pass has been grounded a new force may result from a bat, an illegal kick or a muff. 2) Responsibility for forcing the ball from the field of play across the goal line is attributed to the player who carries, snaps, passes, fumbles or kicks the ball, unless a new force is applied to either a kick, fumble or backward pass that has been grounded. 3) The muffing or batting of a pass, kick or fumble in flight is not considered a new force. Rule 8-5-2b states, It is a SAFETY when: b) A player who is either in the field of play or in his end zone, forces a loose-ball from the field of play to or across his goal line by his kick, pass, fumble, snap or by a new force to a grounded loose-ball ..... Rule 9-7-2 states, No player shall bat a loose-ball other than a pass or a fumble in flight, or a low scrimmage kick in flight which he is attempting to block in or behind the expanded neutral zone. Exception: A K player may bat toward his own goal line a grounded scrimmage kick which is beyond the neutral zone and may also bat towards his own goal line a scrimmage kick in flight beyond the neutral zone, if no R player is in position to catch the ball.  Answers:  In play "A" the ball is bouncing in the end zone when batted through the end zone by B. The penalty for the illegal bat by B in their end zone results in a safety. The following kick by B will be from their 20-yard line. The safety assessed for B's illegal bat is the penalty. Answer B: Touchback

Because of the buzz that was created, here is the first rebuttal:

Here is the explanation that was provided: The correct answer is team A has two choices, 1) they can accept the result of the play which is a safety (the ball is illegally batted out of the end zone by team B), or 2) have the penalty for batting enforced from the end of the run (where the fumble occurred). One of the sticking issues centered around force. As explained to me, Force only applies to the ball entering the end zone (which all of us know). It has no bearing on the play after it has entered the end zone. There is no question the illegal batting by B is an infraction in the end zone which if accepted results in a Safety. If A does not accept the result of the play, the penalty is enforced from the end of the run (replay the down after assessing the penalty).

This created a 2nd rebuttal:
After receiving several inquires regarding the last batting rule interpretation the rule was revisited. A correction is required regarding the batting rule interpretation.
 
After several discussions with several knowledgeable football rule individuals, a correct interpretation has been reached. Here is the correct ruling: A's fumble DID put the ball in the end zone (8-5-3c). B obviously had nothing to do with the ball crossing their goal line. Therefore, when B bats it out of the end zone, that is when the foul occurs, AND the resulting play is a touchback.  Team A will more than likely accept the batting penalty which will be enforced from the basic spot (the spot of the fumble) and the down will be replayed. Hopefully this finally clears up any confusion you may have had. I want to thank those of you who questioned the previous rulings. That is how we all learn. Remember, the important thing is to get the call and enforcement right.

There seems to be some sort of inequity in regards to the result of the play-touchback versus safety.

Please review and offer your insight.


ECILLJ

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 09:17:42 AM »
Here is the correct ruling: A's fumble DID put the ball in the end zone (8-5-3c). B obviously had nothing to do with the ball crossing their goal line. Therefore, when B bats it out of the end zone, that is when the foul occurs, AND the resulting play is a touchback.  Team A will more than likely accept the batting penalty which will be enforced from the basic spot (the spot of the fumble) and the down will be replayed.

tyro,

Are you in Central Illinois? I have seen a similar email. I do agree with the correction.  yEs: This has been a lot of reading and thinking this morning.  :sTiR: I need another cup of coffee and maybe a donut.  eAt&

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 09:42:38 AM »
A quick thought on this....
   Even though B jarred the ball loose, A's fumble put the ball in the EZ, play dies inout of EZ = touchback
   Illegal bat by B occurred in EZ but fouls by B are enforced from end of run OR previous spot if the fumble occurred  behind the LOS.

Couple of things to keep in mind when in the shadows of the goal post.....

   A muff is an attempt to recover the ball, a bat is attempt to bat the ball (Seahawks highlight reel)

   A new force can only occur on a GROUNDED fumble.

   A ball touching an unknowing player is not a new force.

   A mechanic we use : When ball is inside either 5, we point to brain & goalline = "Think force".   

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 11:41:14 AM »
For (a), the second interp is correct -- A will accept the illegal batting penalty, 1/2 the distance from the EOR, replay the down.

In (b), B50 has legally batted a fumble in flight.  It will be A's ball at the OOB spot.

Offline tyro01

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 12:02:07 PM »
The bat was not a fumble in flight, bama_stripes. The bat was of a loose ball fumbled into the end zone by A that had hit the ground before the bat.  Thank you. 

Offline medi-ogre

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 12:26:40 PM »
or b) B50 bats the ball out of bounds before it touches the ground.

In scenario b, the ball hasn't been grounded so it's a legal batting of a ball in flight.  I think what bama may have missed because the OP wasn't clear on it was the ball was batted out of bounds across the GL and out of the EZ...OP correct me if I'm wrong here.

In this situation, since the force that put the ball in the EZ is still attributed to A and the batting is legal, the result of the play is TB.  1/10 B at A20
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 12:35:41 PM by medi-ogre »

younggun

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 12:37:37 PM »
I did not realize we had this many from Central IL on here.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 12:45:33 PM »
Couple of things to keep in mind when in the shadows of the goal post.....

   A muff is an attempt to recover the ball, a bat is attempt to bat the ball (Seahawks highlight reel)

And a muffin is a delicious pastry that's always a wonderful breakfast. Make mine blueberry, please. 

Offline tyro01

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 12:56:54 PM »
If the ball was in flight, then the force of the loose ball would not change. 

Offline Curious

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 02:17:19 PM »
I don't think 'Bama missed anything: tiphat:

For (a), the second interp is correct -- A will accept the illegal batting penalty, 1/2 the distance from the EOR, replay the down.In (b), B50 has legally batted a fumble in flight.  It will be A's ball at the OOB spot

Here's the OP: A81 is fighting thru a tackle at B's 3-yard line. As he is falling forward, B31 punches the ball from his grasp, and a) The ball bounces in the end zone and is batted out of the end zone by B50, or b) B50 bats the ball out of bounds before it touches the ground.

Part "b" does not actually mention whether the ball is in the EZ - nor, IMHO, does it matter if has crossed the plane of the goal line. This is a fumble not a kick; so the plane of the GL is not a factor. It's just a loose ball in flight and where it is batted while in flight has no significance.  So in "b" there is no foul - hence no spot of the foul - or new force for that matter.  Just award the ball to A at the OOB spot. 

Offline medi-ogre

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 02:25:51 PM »
If the ball was in flight, then the force of the loose ball would not change.

Your point being what?  Your statement is correct.  If the ball is batted out of the air and goes into the EZ, the force for that crossing is attributed still to A which makes the play a TD if A recovers, a TB if B recovers or the ball becomes dead (goes out of bounds from the EZ).  I'm not sure what you're arguing.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2015, 03:10:31 PM »
The bat was not a fumble in flight, bama_stripes. The bat was of a loose ball fumbled into the end zone by A that had hit the ground before the bat.  Thank you.

In your Situation (b), there's no mention of the ball hitting the ground.  My apologies if I misunderstood the play.

You're welcome.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2015, 09:31:36 AM »
If....
   B bats A's ungrounded fumble OOB...

          (a) at B's one =A's ball @ B's 1.

          (b) out of EZA = B's ball @ B's 20.

If....
  Cubbies lose game 3, the stage will be set for them to join the Red Sox and become the only teams to be down 0-3 in post-season and win a series from a New York Team. tiphat: aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd tiphat:.....

GO CUBBIES..MAY THE GOAT HAVE A DRINK AND MAY FRED MERKLE TOUCH SECOND!!!

Offline medi-ogre

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 01:13:40 PM »
If....
   B bats A's ungrounded fumble OOB...

          (a) at B's one =A's ball @ B's 1.

          (b) out of EZA = B's ball @ B's 20.
As unlikely as it would ever be, has anyone ever seen b happen or something like it?  How did the ensuing conversation with A's coach go when he's screaming for a safety or a penalty?

Offline Curious

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2015, 02:40:52 PM »
As unlikely as it would ever be, has anyone ever seen b happen or something like it?  How did the ensuing conversation with A's coach go when he's screaming for a safety or a penalty?

Haven't seen it in 40+ years; but would love to have the discussion with the coach. Would also like to believe we are all always  better prepared due to these discussions.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Fumble-illegal batting-result of play-penalty enforcement
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 03:19:10 PM »
I've seen B bat a fumble in flight, I've seen B bat a fumble in flight OOB (although I don't think that was the intent).  But it wasn't anywhere near the goal line.  Simple call: A's ball at the OOB spot.