Game day tester......

[AlUpstateNY]

Let me guess, you were opposed to replacing leather helmets with hard, plastic helmets. You seem to oppose every possible change to the rules and come up with wordy, highlighted, italicized explanations that ultimate say "I don't like change."

Actually, I don't have a problem with "Change" in general, however when I can't see ANY benefit or purpose to a suggested change, as well as some clear negatives, I try and seek clarification, hoping I might learn something.  Apparently you have nothing worthwhile to offer to help me appreciate the reasoning, other than, "it's done at other levels".

If your concern is improving your TV presentation skills, you might consider practicing in front of a mirror, in anticipation of the opportunity ever presenting itself. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has little to do with sensible upgrading for good cause.

[Magician]

Actually, I don't have a problem with "Change" in general, however when I can't see ANY benefit or purpose to a suggested change, as well as some clear negatives, I try and seek clarification, hoping I might learn something.  Apparently you have nothing worthwhile to offer to help me appreciate the reasoning, other than, "it's done at other levels".

If your concern is improving your TV presentation skills, you might consider practicing in front of a mirror, in anticipation of the opportunity ever presenting itself. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has little to do with sensible upgrading for good cause.

Spoken like someone is adamantly opposed to change. If they aren't convinced 100% that the change is absolutely necessary they oppose it all costs. Announcing numbers is helpful to everyone involved in the game. Is it absolutely necessary? No. We survive without it. But it's helpful when it's used.

You opposing this because it's not absolutely obvious 100% needed would be the same as me saying I need absolute 100% convincing to consider not changing it. That's a ridiculous request. You can have an opinion that you prefer not announcing numbers and that's fine. But to get that adamant that you go so far as to highlight, bold, and add a lot of extra words that this change is not needed is extreme. It's a different mindset to ask "why shouldn't we?" rather than "why should we?" It's the difference between someone who is open to change and someone is very resistant to change. You have to admit you are the latter.

[AlUpstateNY]

It's the difference between someone who is open to change and someone is very resistant to change. You have to admit you are the latter.

No argument.  If you can provide a specific benefit, relevant reason or obvious purpose for a change, your argument carries a lot more persuasion.  You have yet to do so.  I don't need 100%, but there should be SOMETHING suggesting what is accomplished by the change.  When you come up with something meaningful, I'll be happy to reconsider my assessment.

You might reconsider the potential negative effects, somewhat unique, to the Interscholastic level we're dealing with. Until then, "If it ain't broke and working just fine, I'm not looking to fix anything". 

[bossman72]

Absolutely agree, sharing pertinent information and details with a Coach can be beneficial to the overall management and control of a team, and a game. However, WE ARE NOT responsible for sharing, otherwise non-essential details, especially those of a potentially critical, player personal nature, with "fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media".

I disagree, as it's absolutely our responsibility.  Why give signals to the press box to begin with, if it wasn't our responsibility?  Just verbally tell the coaches we had holding and move on, right?  Apparently they're the only ones in the entire stadium that need to know anything, according to you.

Should " media (believe it necessary to) piece together what happened if there is a TV game, they have appropriate resources and contacts, aside from game officials, to develop those details.

Who?  Who is going to read our minds about what we called?  Please tell me specifically who these "appropriate resources" are.

A great example would be a pick play that happens early in the route.  The QB then throws deep to the WR and we call OPI and don't announce a number.  The TV then does a replay iso shot on the WR that caught the ball and he barely does anything that would warrant a "push off" OPI and the announcers give a polite groan/chuckle like "that wasn't anything".  Meanwhile, we called it on someone else.  Even without TV, the fans would assume we called it on the WR who caught the pass and would be angry because he didn't do anything that would warrant a foul.

If we announce a number, everyone can see that #88 caught the pass and we announced #19 as the guilty party, then they know we didn't call some weak sauce push off and TV might be able to find the pick that we called.  This greatly enhances our credibility. Leaves no doubt.

Another example that I witnessed when observing a high school game the other week.

DT #70 of the visiting team committed a rough personal foul earlier in the 4th qtr.  Then on one play, he facemasked the helmet off of the runner and after the play was kind of giving the business to the person who was blocking him.  Everyone's second flag went up after the play and everyone in the pressbox assumed #70 was ejected when the R gave the PF signal and UNS signal and DQ signal against the defense.  Turns out, they ejected #20 for taking the runner's helmet and running off with it and taunting the other team with it like it was a battle trophy while using vulgar language.

Next series, #70 comes back in the game and the home coaches are going nuts in the press box saying he came back in the game (because everyone thought they ejected him and not #20).  Announcing the number would remove all doubt and ambiguity here.

[CalhounLJ]

We don’t normally have mics until we get to the playoffs in the bigger schools and the championship games. During those times I simply announced the foul and the team designation. “Holding against the offense. 10 yd penalty, replay ___ down.” Seemed to work fine. The only problem I have with announcing the number is that- if we are micd everybody knows, but in reality most of us are not micd on any given Friday night.


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[AlUpstateNY]

I disagree, as it's absolutely our responsibility.  Why give signals to the press box to begin with, if it wasn't our responsibility?  Just verbally tell the coaches we had holding and move on, right?  Apparently they're the only ones in the entire stadium that need to know anything, according to you.

Who?  Who is going to read our minds about what we called?  Please tell me specifically who these "appropriate resources" are.

Actually, those "Resource decisions" are the responsibility of the network televising your High School football games, and I wouldn't be surprised if the networks declined providing such level of resources, for that level of broadcasts, as such (potential) detail is simply unnecessary for general viewing pleasure, at that level. 

Considering the likely small percentage of HS football games actually televised, in most areas, the informational necessities you suggest are, at best, minimal.  However, as most (if not all) HS football games draw intense "local" attention to games played primarily my minor age players, specifically identifying players making mistakes (which may in some instances may have significant negative effect on the (Local) viewing audience) is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive.

Signalling penalties, and other pertinent, necessary information relative to the contest is indeed beneficial to the general viewing benefit of spectators, however specifically, and publicly, identifying the specific players making those mistakes is totally UNNECESSARY to the flow, or understanding of the game, and may well create opportunity to invade the privacy of student athlete's  (often minors) privacy. 

The NFHS has made this decision optional, so it is YOUR choice whether appeasing a minute "potential" of viewers, with normally unavailable informational detail, is worth risking potential subsequent bullying, intimidation and ridicule of minor student athletes in an age where such abhorrent behavior, subject to constant enhancement of Social Media is steadily rising.

Considering whether the "ends justify the means" seems appropriate. 

[brettjr2005]

is worth risking potential subsequent bullying, intimidation and ridicule of minor student athletes in an age where such abhorrent behavior, subject to constant enhancement of Social Media is steadily rising.

Holy hyperbole. You're clearly willing to die on this ant hill.

[AlUpstateNY]

Holy hyperbole. You're clearly willing to die on this ant hill.

Actually, it's never been much of a threat, for the past 100 (or so) years, it's really been easy to simply step around.

[bossman72]

Actually, those "Resource decisions" are the responsibility of the network televising your High School football games, and I wouldn't be surprised if the networks declined providing such level of resources, for that level of broadcasts, as such (potential) detail is simply unnecessary for general viewing pleasure, at that level. 

You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official.

specifically identifying players making mistakes (which may in some instances may have significant negative effect on the (Local) viewing audience) is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive.

I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.

and may well create opportunity to invade the privacy of student athlete's  (often minors) privacy.

What in the blue hell are you talking about?  Privacy?  This was done in front of thousands of spectators!  What is private about that?

The NFHS has made this decision optional, so it is YOUR choice whether appeasing a minute "potential" of viewers, with normally unavailable informational detail, is worth risking potential subsequent bullying, intimidation and ridicule of minor student athletes in an age where such abhorrent behavior, subject to constant enhancement of Social Media is steadily rising.

Very highly doubt that would happen.  I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.

[AlUpstateNY]

You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official. I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.  What in the blue hell are you talking about?  Privacy?  This was done in front of thousands of spectators!  What is private about that?  Very highly doubt that would happen.  I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.

Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently.  Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct. Since you asked...

"You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official.":  Of course not because  they don't exist, and doubtfully ever will, because it's not necessary nor worth the effort, cost or bother to provide such resources.

"I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.":  Similar to "beauty", USEFUL is in the eye of the beholder.

"What in the blue hell are you talking about?  Privacy?  This was done in front of thousands of spectators!  What is private about that?" : Actually nothing, until someone decides it's somehow necessary (or a neat idea) to publicly IDENTIFY the guilty party for EACH foul, which you still haven't provided any solid reason for being NECESSARY.

"Very highly doubt that would happen.  I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.":  BUT, there are times that even "doubtful" things happen, and cause problems that create consequences that were unanticipated.  The fact that apparently specific identification announcement is not necessary for dropped passes, interceptions or missed tackles underscores such identification IS NOT NECESSARY, or improves the game.

[PABJNR]

Just curious but when you have a conversation with someone do you say BOLD, CAPS or ITALICS prior to starting a sentence?


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[Magician]

Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently.  Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct. Since you asked...

"You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official.":  Of course not because  they don't exist, and doubtfully ever will, because it's not necessary nor worth the effort, cost or bother to provide such resources.

"I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.":  Similar to "beauty", USEFUL is in the eye of the beholder.

"What in the blue hell are you talking about?  Privacy?  This was done in front of thousands of spectators!  What is private about that?" : Actually nothing, until someone decides it's somehow necessary (or a neat idea) to publicly IDENTIFY the guilty party for EACH foul, which you still haven't provided any solid reason for being NECESSARY.

"Very highly doubt that would happen.  I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.":  BUT, there are times that even "doubtful" things happen, and cause problems that create consequences that were unanticipated.  The fact that apparently specific identification announcement is not necessary for dropped passes, interceptions or missed tackles underscores such identification IS NOT NECESSARY, or improves the game.

I love how you keep proving my point for me and don't even realize it. Several people have provided you a variety of legitimate reasons to allow numbers to be announced, but your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." Of course now you've added that it's an invasion of privacy and a possible threat to the person identified.

[AlUpstateNY]

I love how you keep proving my point for me and don't even realize it. Several people have provided you a variety of legitimate reasons to allow numbers to be announced, but your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." Of course now you've added that it's an invasion of privacy and a possible threat to the person identified.

Apparently Magician, you may have inadvertently overlooked the first, and perhaps most important part, part of my previous response.  I'll highlight it here, for your contemplation; "Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently.  Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct".

In addition to your assessment that, "your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." my position includes a long standing realization and concern, as previously stated, that NFHS Rules are designed for INTERSCHOLASTIC Sports, which usually involve a significant majority of student athletes, as well as supporters and fans, who have yet to reach "maturity".

NFHS Rules generally apply to participants between the ages of 8/10 yrs to upper teens, as opposed to young adult (NCAA) and professional adult (NFL) participants who function at more mature and experience levels. Different Football Rules codes have evolved somewhat differently to accommodate these inherent differences, unique to their participants.

Please excuse my hesitation to accept any of the "variety of reasons" (thus far suggested) to allow numbers, and the personal identify of players, to be publicly announced and called to attention, in the NFHS environment, as anywhere near "Legitimate", or more importantly, "Necessary" or beneficial to the game, or it's participants.

Perhaps rather than requiring justifications to prevent this change, focus should be concentrated on providing necessity, or convincing reason, for adopting it, along with existing potential, and relevant, consequences.

 

[CalhounLJ]

Somebody remind me what the argument is about.


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[bossman72]

I love how you keep proving my point for me and don't even realize it. Several people have provided you a variety of legitimate reasons to allow numbers to be announced, but your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." Of course now you've added that it's an invasion of privacy and a possible threat to the person identified.

Essentially:

[JasonTX]

Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important?  Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish?

What does it hurt to announce it?  We announce it and the game moves along quicker than having to relay all the information to the coach.

[bama_stripes]

Al:

Your arguments about “privacy” and “embarrassment of minors” would carry a lot more weight if we weren’t required to identify fouling players in NFHS basketball games.

[ilyazhito]

True dat. If we, as officials, give the number to the Referee, why should the Referee not report the number to the stadium, so the coach can hear it, and people can identify who fouled and how? In basketball, that makes sense, and it does for football too, especially because some fouls lead to disqualification. Coach needs to know if Johnny or Bobby might be disqualified on the next foul, so why not say " Unsportsmanlike conduct, defense #55. This is his 1st unsportsmanlike conduct of the game"?

[Magician]

Apparently Magician, you may have inadvertently overlooked the first, and perhaps most important part, part of my previous response.  I'll highlight it here, for your contemplation; "Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently.  Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct".

In addition to your assessment that, "your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." my position includes a long standing realization and concern, as previously stated, that NFHS Rules are designed for INTERSCHOLASTIC Sports, which usually involve a significant majority of student athletes, as well as supporters and fans, who have yet to reach "maturity".

NFHS Rules generally apply to participants between the ages of 8/10 yrs to upper teens, as opposed to young adult (NCAA) and professional adult (NFL) participants who function at more mature and experience levels. Different Football Rules codes have evolved somewhat differently to accommodate these inherent differences, unique to their participants.

Please excuse my hesitation to accept any of the "variety of reasons" (thus far suggested) to allow numbers, and the personal identify of players, to be publicly announced and called to attention, in the NFHS environment, as anywhere near "Legitimate", or more importantly, "Necessary" or beneficial to the game, or it's participants.

Perhaps rather than requiring justifications to prevent this change, focus should be concentrated on providing necessity, or convincing reason, for adopting it, along with existing potential, and relevant, consequences.

 

It's optional for states to do it. The state could require it only for varsity games or any high school games. Our state has no jurisdiction over middle school or youth games so it would be up to those organizations if they wanted to do it.

It's hard for 8-10 year olds to understand what it means to line up as a back or lineman (anyone who has worked that age no this to be true!!) so we shouldn't have a rule requiring linemen to be breaking the waist of the snapper or backs to be completely behind the waist of the nearest lineman. That's too hard for the 8-years to understand and doesn't really apply to them so let's get rid of the rule. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds. There are many rules that are applied differently at lower levels to adjust for their ability or for game management (i.e. clock rules).

[CalhounLJ]

Not trying to butt in on this conversation, but in reality how big a deal is this? I have no problem announcing a number or flashing it up on the Jumbotron if we had the capability, but neither of those options are available at your average high school football stadium. Just for the sake of clarity, how many of you guys are mic’d on Friday night? I’m guessing the number will be low, especially in the states that do not even have a visible play clock. I may be wrong.


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[AlUpstateNY]

Until you get to basketball season, then announce away.

Basketball is a great sport, fun to play, watch and challenging to officiate.  There are some game management similarities to football, but each game is unique to it'sown specific necessities. Both games suffer, and deal with penalties but in very different, unique ways.  Both involve and depend, on the consistent use of balls by participants, but the particular needs of the game dictate the balls are in noticeably different shapes, and are not interchangeable.  Such is life.

Sometimes "easier", or just because it's done at different levels is simply not enough of a reason to make universal change. What else do you have?  Apparently NFHS has provided that option, so "If the shoe fits", and your Region decides to wear it, Knock yourself out.

[Magician]

Not trying to butt in on this conversation, but in reality how big a deal is this? I have no problem announcing a number or flashing it up on the Jumbotron if we had the capability, but neither of those options are available at your average high school football stadium. Just for the sake of clarity, how many of you guys are mic’d on Friday night? I’m guessing the number will be low, especially in the states that do not even have a visible play clock. I may be wrong.

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We have visible play clocks at all our schools but only once or twice per season are we mic'd up. The state finals though are all mic'd because they are held at Lucas Oil Stadium.

[zebrastripes]

Al:

Your arguments about “privacy” and “embarrassment of minors” would carry a lot more weight if we weren’t required to identify fouling players in NFHS basketball games.

The PA announcer in most basketball games announces the NAME as well as the number of the player who fouled. Yet I don't hear any basketball people whining about "embarrassment" to the student-athletes. It's always been palpably stupid to me that the R historically wouldn't announce numbers in HS football games. Thankfully that is changing even though some states still don't permit it.

There is no reason to withhold this information other than "we've never done it before."

Honestly, I'm done caring what Al's opinions are. It's clear he's opposed to every change that requires him to adapt and then he tries to gloss over it with wordy, overly-formatted replies.

[PABJNR]

Basketball is a great sport, fun to play, watch and challenging to officiate.  There are some game management similarities to football, but each game is unique to it'sown specific necessities. Both games suffer, and deal with penalties but in very different, unique ways.  Both involve and depend, on the consistent use of balls by participants, but the particular needs of the game dictate the balls are in noticeably different shapes, and are not interchangeable.  Such is life.

Sometimes "easier", or just because it's done at different levels is simply not enough of a reason to make universal change. What else do you have?  Apparently NFHS has provided that option, so "If the shoe fits", and your Region decides to wear it, Knock yourself out.

Wow thanks for letting me know the ball was a different shape in basketball.  While both sports use unique inflated rubber of different shapes and sizes and who knows may or may not need to be inflated to different pressure, measured in pounds per square inch. The rational that I have always been advised is that announcing a number of the player who committed a foul in football was not approved because the players are interscholastic an need not be embarrassed.

My point of contention is that it would make more sense if that stance was taken unequivocally across all sports and not inclusive of select extracurricular activities.  I am willing to wager that a majority of the participation in boys basketball are by adolescents who also participate in football (and probably understand a different set of balls are required for each said sport) and as such really do not care personally if their number gets announced in one season but not the other.

I just thought it strange, or perhaps ironic, that one interscholastic sport does announce while one does not in some localities.

With respect to the question regarding the necessity to announce a number I think Patches O’Houlihan said it best when asked if something was necessary

Necessary? Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No, but I do it anyway because it's sterile and I like the taste.  - Patches O’Houlihan




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[AlUpstateNY]

I just thought it strange, or perhaps ironic, that one interscholastic sport does announce while one does not in some localities.

With respect to the question regarding the necessity to announce a number I think Patches O’Houlihan said it best when asked if something was necessary

Necessary? Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No, but I do it anyway because it's sterile and I like the taste.  - Patches O’Houlihan. 

Thanks for the warning, I'll be very selective, and careful, should anyone named O'Houlihan offer to buy me a drink.

Perhaps this issue boils down to just how significant, in the greater, overall scheme of things it actually is, what you, or any of us thinks about how a long existing, and widely practiced procedure is handled differently by different sports in the same area. 

Our role is to enforce rules created by others, even though (and thankfully) those others sincerely seek and appreciate our input, their decisions often involve factors well beyond our perspective and responsibility. Input, about potential changes, are best directed, through appropriate channels to those who decide Rules.