Another Interesting Play

[NVFOA_Ump]

From last Friday night's varsity game.  Score is B 24, A 18.  A has 4th and 36 at the 50 yard line after 3 consecutive sacks.  The clock is running with less than 20 seconds in the 4th period.  Ball is snapped and we almost immediately start the backward pass circus.  Just after the 3rd (or 4th backward pass) the B defender grabs the back collar of the A player who has already released the ball and immediately takes him backward to the ground at the B42 yard line.  Play continues and finally ends at the B35 yard line as the game clock reads 0.  We've got a flag down back at the B42 yard line.  What is the correct call and enforcement here?

[CalhounLJ]

From last Friday night's varsity game.  Score is B 24, A 18.  A has 4th and 36 at the 50 yard line after 3 consecutive sacks.  The clock is running with less than 20 seconds in the 4th period.  Ball is snapped and we almost immediately start the backward pass circus.  Just after the 3rd (or 4th backward pass) the B defender grabs the back collar of the A player who has already released the ball and immediately takes him backward to the ground at the B42 yard line.  Play continues and finally ends at the B35 yard line as the game clock reads 0.  We've got a flag down back at the B42 yard line.  What is the correct call and enforcement here?

What was the call on the field?

[NVFOA_Ump]

What was the call on the field?

After discussion it was called PF-UNR, 15 yard tack-on with an untimed down.  Real focus IMHO is where should the penalty have been enforced from?  At the flag, end of the run that was going on when flag was thrown, or the DB spot which was 2 "runs" later.

[Fatso]

From last Friday night's varsity game.  Score is B 24, A 18.  A has 4th and 36 at the 50 yard line after 3 consecutive sacks.  The clock is running with less than 20 seconds in the 4th period.  Ball is snapped and we almost immediately start the backward pass circus.  Just after the 3rd (or 4th backward pass) the B defender grabs the back collar of the A player who has already released the ball and immediately takes him backward to the ground at the B42 yard line.  Play continues and finally ends at the B35 yard line as the game clock reads 0.  We've got a flag down back at the B42 yard line.  What is the correct call and enforcement here?

15 yds from end of run and play one untimed down.  (replay 4th down)   

my best guess.....

[lawdog]

After discussion it was called PF-UNR, 15 yard tack-on with an untimed down.  Real focus IMHO is where should the penalty have been enforced from?  At the flag, end of the run that was going on when flag was thrown, or the DB spot which was 2 "runs" later.

Depends if you want to do it right or follow the garbage language of the new rule.

[CalhounLJ]

After discussion it was called PF-UNR, 15 yard tack-on with an untimed down.  Real focus IMHO is where should the penalty have been enforced from?  At the flag, end of the run that was going on when flag was thrown, or the DB spot which was 2 "runs" later.

It was a live ball foul. If the foul and the run ended beyond the Los, then it's the old all-but-one. If the flag was behind the end of the run related to the foul, then mark it off from the flag. If not, mark it off from the end of the related run. The dead ball spot would not work in either situation.

[CalhounLJ]

Depends if you want to do it right or follow the garbage language of the new rule.

Exactly. Me, I'm going with what I've always known.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Depends if you want to do it right or follow the garbage language of the new rule.

After the game we decided that we should have enforced from the end of the "related run" (10-4-5-e) but what we thought was the applicable rule uses both "succeeding spot" and "related run" terminology.  We used the succeeding spot, end of the last run but alas the untimed down was an incomplete pass so if we got it wrong at least it didn't and up changing the outcome of the game.  Would be really nice if the language that's been so cobbled up could be fixed?   

[bama_stripes]

My question is: How are we going to determine the end of the related run?  In this case, the spot of the flag and the EOR are probably the same, but that’s not necessarily true in all cases.

[lawdog]

My question is: How are we going to determine the end of the related run?  In this case, the spot of the flag and the EOR are probably the same, but that’s not necessarily true in all cases.

That's what the beanbag is for.

[lawdog]

Exactly. Me, I'm going with what I've always known.

Concur.  And actually we were instructed to call it that way by our high school league at the start of the year because they acknowledged the Fed screwed the pooch, unlike the Fed itself.  And interestingly that came from our head of officiating who's also a member of the Fed editorial committee that did it.

[NVFOA_Ump]

My question is: How are we going to determine the end of the related run?  In this case, the spot of the flag and the EOR are probably the same, but that’s not necessarily true in all cases.

That's a good part of the problem.  The foul actually occurred after the A player that was fouled had released the ball on a backward pass so by the time that he actually went down a different A player was the "runner".  I do believe that in this case the intent of the rules makers would be to use the succeeding spot (end of the last run tack-on), but I can't get that out of the current wording in the book.

[Etref]

That's a good part of the problem.  The foul actually occurred after the A player that was fouled had released the ball on a backward pass so by the time that he actually went down a different A player was the "runner".  I do believe that in this case the intent of the rules makers would be to use the succeeding spot (end of the last run tack-on), but I can't get that out of the current wording in the book.

Playing devils advocate…

What if that subsequent run ends in a loss of yardage?

[lawdog]

Playing devils advocate…

What if that subsequent run ends in a loss of yardage?

previous spot for fouls by B on plays ending behind line of scrimmage.

[Etref]

previous spot for fouls by B on plays ending behind line of scrimmage.

Not necessarily behind the LOS, but behind the spot of the foul.
Point is your flag should be at or near the spot of the related run

[bama_stripes]

That's what the beanbag is for.

How many do you carry?  And do you drop one every time there’s a backward pass beyond the LOS, or only on this type of play?

[Ralph Damren]

Guys, the foul was on B, so 'all but one' ( it's still there, but worded differently) wouldn't apply. The principle of ABO is that the foul may have inabled the runner to advance further, while a B foul would be enforced from the end of the run. Now you need to ask yourself how would you enforce a simular play :
 LOS @ 50 ,3/10...
(1) A1 pitches backward pass to A2 @ A's 45;
(2) B1 pulls A1 down by facemaskl;
(3)  A2 advances to B'35.

YOU MAKE THE CALL

[ElvisLives]

How many do you carry?  And do you drop one every time there’s a backward pass beyond the LOS, or only on this type of play?

When I worked deep (S, F, B), I would have two bean bags on my belt. Had to use both on a few occasions. Not for multiple fumbles, or multiple backward pass, or combinations. But, those DO happen, and yes, you need to mark each of those spots with a “Spot Marker,” informally called by what it is - a bean bag. I had to use two occasionally when I would have an illegal touch, then the end of the kick, during a punt play. Those happen with some greater level of regularity. If you run out of bean bags, then use your hat.
Now, in those highly unusual instances of multiple backward passes (or handing) - more than 3 -, you may run out of spot markers. We can only do what we can do. Often, one, or more, of those ‘backward’ passes, is actually forward, so that spot gets marked with a foul marker (flag), or spare bean bag, hat, whatever it takes. It is possible you’ll just have to make a mental note of the yard line at which a pass (forward or backward) was thrown.