Having a Brain Dead Enforcement Question

[maybrefguy]

I agree - no bean bag necessary on backwards passes or fumbles behind the LOS.  Rule 10-3-1c.  Basic spot is previous spot.

[pjsaul]

I still bag fumbles behind the neutral zone.  It is just automatic habit. And to pretty much any fan (and I imagine most players and coaches) it does signify "I have a fumble", rather than anything regarding an enforcement spot.

[Ralph Damren]

You also don't need to bean bag the spot of the interception or end of free kick. I've seen both happen with the official sheepishly sneaking back to retrieve it. As you all grow longer of tooth, you probably will begin to feel that running isn't as enjoyable and easy as it used to be.

ADVICE FOR ALL OLE' DUFFERS :
  Don't sprint when you can jog;
   don't jog when you can walk;
    don't walk when you can stand;
     don't stand when you can sit;
      don't sit when you can lay;;;;;

ADVICE FOR OLE' DUFFER WHITE HATS :
  Don't feel you need to be up at the ball to signal RFP - just as easy back at A's huddle;
   Don't sprint unless B/R is returning for a potential score;
    Don't run to flagging official, have him leave his flag and run to you.
     Don't be lazy, just don't run anymore than you have to;
      ......you'll soon discover that you don't need to run as much as you thought you did

"Your hind paws will only take you so far....don't go there if you needn't be." -Ole' Mainer proverb     

[Atlanta Blue]

During a scrimmage last week, wing drops a bag on a fumble that is clearly in the backfield. Being a scrimmage, we had been talking all night.   I asked him why he dropped that bag.

H:  Coach, we always need the spot of the fumble.
Me:  Why would you need that one?
H: Might have to mark off a penalty from there.
Me:  Wouldn't it be a loose ball play, and a previous spot?
H (sounding irritated): Coach, trust me, we need that spot.
Me (softly, as he was running downfield out of earshot): No, trust me, you don't.

I expected "out of habit" or "as a signal to the crew the ball is loose", not great reasons, but reasonable.  But it's clear, there are officials that have no idea why they are dropping that bag.

[bama_stripes]

Do we ever need the spot of a backwards pass behind the line for enforcement, though?  Isn't this by definition a loose ball play with the basic spot being the previous spot?

Correct.  The only time I bag behind the line is to let everyone know we have a fumble on a play where it's not obvious.

[bama_stripes]

     Don't be lazy, just don't run anymore than you have to;
      ......you'll soon discover that you don't need to run as much as you thought you did    

You'll also discover that you can see plays from 15 yards away that you used to think you had to be 5 yards from.

[Tdjr]

I was once chastised by a fellow official for not using my bean bag on a fumble behind the LOS, in case of an inadvertent whistle.  I guess technically, he was correct, but what coach would ever elect to take the ball at the spot of the fumble in lieu of replaying the down.

[Ralph Damren]

A mechanic that we use is for the whitehat to beanbag forward progress on a QB sack, retrieve the ball from the QB and flip to U  who is now/will be soon standing over the beanbagged spot. We also beanbag the spot the QB released the forward pass, if close to the LOS. If he's not beyond the LOS, that beanbag, too, is behind the line.

Never say never.

[VALJ]

A mechanic that we use is for the whitehat to beanbag forward progress on a QB sack, retrieve the ball from the QB and flip to U  who is now/will be soon standing over the beanbagged spot. We also beanbag the spot the QB released the forward pass, if close to the LOS. If he's not beyond the LOS, that beanbag, too, is behind the line.

Never say never.

I've used that last one - the bean bag shows that we know where the pass was thrown, and we can point to it if necessary.  I've also used the bean bag for a scrimmage kick that's touched or recovered close to the LOS for the same reason.

As far as the spot of a sack, the old grey hairs in our association figure that in general, if we're off by a yard, nobody really cares.  A is upset that the QB got sacked, and B's so happy to have scored a sack that they don't care whether we spot the ball at the 34 or the 33.  Now, deep in A's territory, of course, it's a different story...

[AlUpstateNY]

During a scrimmage last week, wing drops a bag on a fumble that is clearly in the backfield. Being a scrimmage, we had been talking all night.   I asked him why he dropped that bag.

H:  Coach, we always need the spot of the fumble.
Me:  Why would you need that one?
H: Might have to mark off a penalty from there.
Me:  Wouldn't it be a loose ball play, and a previous spot?
H (sounding irritated): Coach, trust me, we need that spot.
Me (softly, as he was running downfield out of earshot): No, trust me, you don't.

I expected "out of habit" or "as a signal to the crew the ball is loose", not great reasons, but reasonable.  But it's clear, there are officials that have no idea why they are dropping that bag.

OK, you won an inconsequential skirmish, and proved a point IN A SCRIMMAGE.  God willing that official is mature enough to forget the exchange and move on without any damage to mhis perception of you.

[theunofficialofficial]

A mechanic that we use is for the whitehat to beanbag forward progress on a QB sack, retrieve the ball from the QB and flip to U  who is now/will be soon standing over the beanbagged spot. We also beanbag the spot the QB released the forward pass, if close to the LOS. If he's not beyond the LOS, that beanbag, too, is behind the line.

Never say never.

I like having the R with mark progress on a QB sack with bean bag. Especially since as a flank in 5 man mechanics you're going all split eye'd with one eye on downfield receivers and one eye on the QB. Having the R just mark the spot rather than having the flanks sort of figure it out is nice.

As for the bean bag on the (il)legal forward pass, here is my 2 cents on the matter. As R I am going to be trailing QB and if he is close to LOS, I'm come up to LOS and take a quick peak at the box. If I think he is CLEARLY beyond LOS I drop my flag on the ground at that spot. "Coach where my flag is, is where the QB threw the ball." If he is behind I've got nothing. "Coach in my opinion he threw the ball behind the LOS." Nothing to fetch later and life moves on.

[KDJBBBJ]

So this is a previous spot enforcement then with the basic spot being the previous spot on loose ball plays?  That's tough!! You can decline the penalty and take the result of the play but I don't want to have to explain that to the coach of A.

[Ralph Damren]

So this is a previous spot enforcement then with the basic spot being the previous spot on loose ball plays?  That's tough!! You can decline the penalty and take the result of the play but I don't want to have to explain that to the coach of A.

The "hard to handle" part is ,for enforcement purposes, it's two running plays (remember you can have several running plays if you have several downfield fumbles) sandwiched between the two runs is the fumble and the foul occurred during the first run. The spot of that fumble should be bean bagged and that would become the basic & enforcement of that related run. You need to remember that, in a loose ball play for basic spot purposes, the ball has to become loose BEHIND the LOS. While many laymen consider a fumble downfield as a loose ball, perchance we should refer to it as something else. A suggestion would be referring to a downfield FUmble as merely "FU". Some with vile minds might detect a double endure.....others may consider it a good idea.

[KDJBBBJ]

So is it a loose ball play on a backwards pass behind the line of scrimmage including a snap, or is it any backwards pass including the snap?

[wvoref]

It is a loose ball play on a backward pass behind the line of scrimmage.  Beyond the line of scrimmage it is a running play with the related run ending where the runner lost possession (ie released the backward pass).  If I understood your question correctly.

[AlUpstateNY]

I've used that last one - the bean bag shows that we know where the pass was thrown, and we can point to it if necessary.  I've also used the bean bag for a scrimmage kick that's touched or recovered close to the LOS for the same reason.

As far as the spot of a sack, the old grey hairs in our association figure that in general, if we're off by a yard, nobody really cares.  A is upset that the QB got sacked, and B's so happy to have scored a sack that they don't care whether we spot the ball at the 34 or the 33.  Now, deep in A's territory, of course, it's a different story...

The spot, of an illegal forward pass (thrown over the NZ) can be difficult to determine it's legality when the R is facing the opposite sideline the chains are on (turning around to determine over, or not, doesn't work well).  The presence of a beanbag, for clarification, can be helpful in eliminating arguments when the result is a (necessarily) late flag.

On a sack, there are instances (not always), where the spots where the run actually ends, and the collision ending the run wind up, drifting far apart. The choice is to either bag the spot and pursue the collision to it's conclusion, or hold the spot and observe the collision to it's conclusion. If when deciding to hold the spot, circumstances require leaving it, to deal with further action, dropping a beanbag marks where you left.

As is usual, the actual circumstances of that particular play, will determine the appropriate choice.

[maybrefguy]

I like the thought of the R potentially dropping the bean bag to spot sacks and for the spot of a forward pass.  I'm guessing I'll use that at some point.

I want to take the original question one step further - A1 runs 30 yards to the 50 yd line where B1 in an attempt to tackle the runner commits a personal foul face mask.  The runner is able to pitch the ball backwards to A2 who catches the pitch at A's 45 and runs 55 yards for a TD.  Does this change the enforcement spot?

[Atlanta Blue]

I want to take the original question one step further - A1 runs 30 yards to the 50 yd line where B1 in an attempt to tackle the runner commits a personal foul face mask.  The runner is able to pitch the ball backwards to A2 who catches the pitch at A's 45 and runs 55 yards for a TD.  Does this change the enforcement spot?

Absolutely.  Now it's on the try or the kickoff, choice by A.

[ECILLJ]

Good question. We now have a foul by B on a scoring play by A.  AB nailed it.

[maybrefguy]

That's what I thought.  Does that seem equitable?  I know it doesn't really matter - but that just seems crazy. 

[VALJ]

Doesn't really seem equitable, but then again, neither does the fact that the QB can fumble while being face masked and have the penalty enforced from the previous spot, but if he holds on to the ball it's enforced at the spot where he's sacked (end of the run).

[Atlanta Blue]

That's what I thought.  Does that seem equitable?  I know it doesn't really matter - but that just seems crazy.

It was an "unintended consequence" of a rule change a few years ago.  A "special enforcement" was added for fouls against the defense on scoring plays by the offense.  Players were taking cheap shots during or immediately after scoring plays.  If it came after the play, the only penalty was a yard and half on the PAT.  If it came during the play, it had to be declined for the score to count, as FED doesn't have a typical "add on" penalty.

So a "special enforcement" was added to make these cheap shot fouls really count by allowing them to be "added on" to the PAT or the kickoff.  I think that rule is fine, but it allows ANY foul by the defense to be added on, which really wasn't the intent.  Take this example:  Ball at the 50.  A throws a long pass, defense is flagged for DPI, but the receiver makes the catch and is tackled on the B5.  A has to decline the foul to keep the gain to the B5.  But if that same play happens and the receiver scores instead of being tackled on the B5, now there is a 15 yard penalty added on to the PAT or the kickoff.

I think the "special enforcement" rule should happen on personal fouls that would normally be "added on" (such as the face mask example above), but not on fouls that would have to be declined to keep the gain if it hadn't been a score.  But that would mean writing a more complicated (albeit a more equitable) rule, and FED typically wants to dumb down their rules (don't get me started on the FED balk rule in baseball).

[bama_stripes]

(don't get me started on the FED balk rule in baseball).

At least they have to actually appeal missed bases now.

[Atlanta Blue]

At least they have to actually appeal missed bases now.

True, but you can still do it from the bench, during a dead ball!

Dumb, just dumb.