Free kick out of bounds

[skip1]

R is attempting to possess a free kick. His feet are out of bounds when he touches the kick and the ball never goes out of bounds. Do we have a kick OOB penalty?

[CalhounLJ]

Flag for free kick out of bounds. If the ball had been rolling on the ground, and R who was oob had touched it, it would be R's ball at spot. 6.1.9 Situation C, part (b). Also, when a loose ball touches anything, including a player, who is oob, the ball is oob.

[sir55]

I don't think this is a free kick out of bounds. This would be illegal participation by the receiver, who is out of bounds when he touches the ball. See 9.6.2 SITUATION C:

K1 free-kicks the ball toward the sideline. R1 runs to a sideline and intentionally steps out of bounds. While R1 is still out of bounds, he intentionally touches the ball as it nears the sideline. The ball is declared dead by the covering official.

RULING: Illegal participation by R1. (4-3-1, 6-1-9)

[CalhounLJ]

Good point. I would submit intent is critical. If it was an intentional act by R to cause the ball to go oob, it’s IP. I would also argue that R’s foul does not change ball status. It’s still a ball oob by the kicking team. So, two fouls?


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[CalhounLJ]

Good point. I would submit intent is critical. If it was an intentional act by R to cause the ball to go oob, it’s IP. I would also argue that R’s foul does not change ball status. It’s still a ball oob by the kicking team. So, two fouls?

I’ll also add this applies only to a kick in flight. If the ball is on the ground inbounds and R who is oob touches it, R has caused it to go oob. It’s his ball at the spot, subject to penalty enforcement for IP if he went out intentionally.

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[ncwingman]

I don't think you can philosophically have two fouls on this play.

Either a) the kick went OOB due to the kick or b) the ball ended up OOB because of the illegal participation by R. You can't penalize K because R committed a foul.

There should be a sufficient threshold of intent required for the IP foul that it would supersede the kick OOB.

[Ralph Damren]

In 2000, when the KOOB rule was amended, a list of cases were added covering different situations that could occur. One such dealt with an airborne kick touching a R player who is straddling the sidelines. The quote under the caption illustrating the receiver catching the ball ,which is still over the playing field ,read : Since the receiver touched the kick with the ball inside the sideline plane he is considered to have caused the ball to be out of bounds. The ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot...".(2004 Simplified & Illustrated; pg. 43). Every year some correct cases & illustrations are removed to make room for newer ones. There hasn't been a rule change to effect this situation.

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[Magician]

Flag for free kick out of bounds. If the ball had been rolling on the ground, and R who was oob had touched it, it would be R's ball at spot. 6.1.9 Situation C, part (b). Also, when a loose ball touches anything, including a player, who is oob, the ball is oob.

That case play puts the honus on the kick and not the receiver. This is assuming R is not intentionally out of bounds. You are correct the result of the play is R's ball at that spot, but they also have enforcement options because it's a foul by K for a free kick out of bounds. 5 yards and rekick, 5 yards from the out of bounds spot and 1st down for R or 1st down for R at the R35.

[skip1]

I remember that picture in the illustrated book. I would ask what is the in bounds spot? No penalty for a kick OOB or after a penalty for a kick OOB.

[CalhounLJ]

I remember that picture in the illustrated book. I would ask what is the in bounds spot? No penalty for a kick OOB or after a penalty for a kick OOB.

The inbounds spot that casebook play referred to is the point where the ball was touched at the intersection of that yard line and the “nearest hash.”  The problem I have with that casebook play is its in direct conflict with the “loose ball touching anything oob” principle. Regardless of R’s intent, if R is oob and a loose ball touches him or is touched by him, the ball is considered to be OOB. Since a kick is a kick until it’s not, that’s a kick oob. Another fundamental principle comes into play- if touching the ball causes it to become dead, gaining possession has no significance. If R is OOB and touches the ball, not only is it OOB, it’s dead. Doesn’t matter if he catches it or not. Also doesn’t matter if it’s on or over the playing field or not. Or at least it shouldn’t. 
I agree if R INTENTIONALLY goes out and touches it we have a foul in him for IP. I also agree philosophically we should ignore the kick oob flag and enforce the IP from the previous spot.


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[Morningrise]

This Fed rookie is getting confused again. Which of these are 15-yard penalties for illegal participation?

1. Free kick is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by a K player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
2. Free kick is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by a K player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
3. Free kick is airborne between the sidelines and is unintentionally touched by a K player who is touching the sideline.
4. Free kick is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by a K player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
5. Free kick is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by a K player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
6. Free kick is airborne outside the sideline and is caught by a K team member, not participating in the play, in his team area.

7. Legal forward pass is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by an A player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
8. Legal forward pass is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by an A player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
9. Legal forward pass is airborne between the sidelines and is unintentionally touched by an A player who is touching the sideline.
10. Legal forward pass is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by an A player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
11. Legal forward pass is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by an A player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
12. Legal forward pass is airborne outside the sideline and is caught by an A team member, not participating in the play, in his team area.

[CalhounLJ]

This Fed rookie is getting confused again. Which of these are 15-yard penalties for illegal participation?

1. Free kick is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by a K player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
If K touches an airborne free kick it’s KCI.
2. Free kick is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by a K player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
See #1
3. Free kick is airborne between the sidelines and is unintentionally touched by a K player who is touching the sideline.
See #1
4. Free kick is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by a K player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
See #1
5. Free kick is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by a K player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
IP
6. Free kick is airborne outside the sideline and is caught by a K team member, not participating in the play, in his team area.
Oob. Nothing.
7. Legal forward pass is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by an A player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
Nothing. Incomplete pass.

8. Legal forward pass is airborne between the sidelines and is intentionally touched by an A player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
IP
9. Legal forward pass is airborne between the sidelines and is unintentionally touched by an A player who is touching the sideline.
Nothing.
10. Legal forward pass is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by an A player who doesn't realize he's touching the sideline.
Nothing.
11. Legal forward pass is airborne outside the sideline and is intentionally touched by an A player who does realize he's touching the sideline.
IP
12. Legal forward pass is airborne outside the sideline and is caught by an A team member, not participating in the play, in his team area.
Incomplete pass.

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[AlUpstateNY]

This Fed rookie is getting confused again. Which of these are 15-yard penalties for illegal participation?

Just a suggestion, but I think your confusion might be related to Illegal Participation becomming a foul when the player (A or B) comes back into the playing field, after being OOB (unless blocked OOB by an opponent.) 9-6-1 AND 9-6-2 "No player shall INTENTIONALLY ( which most understand as OTHER than forced) during the down and:

a. Return to the field
b. Intentionally touch the ball
c. Influence the play
d. Otherwise participate

You might also consider that, although their both "loose balls" legal kicks and passes are not the SAME things, as each have unique rules governing them.

NFHS: 2-29-3 advises that a "loose ball" is OOB when it (the loose ball, itself) touches ANYTHING, including a player or game official that is OOB. EXAMPLE: A loose ball, that has yet to touch anything OOB, that would somehow be redirected by an airborne player (A or B)who has not yet touched down OOB, without touching the ground or anything else OOB, back into the field of play, is STILL a live ball (see 2-1-3)

[Ump33]

In 2000, when the KOOB rule was amended, a list of cases were added covering different situations that could occur. One such dealt with an airborne kick touching a R player who is straddling the sidelines. The quote under the caption illustrating the receiver catching the ball ,which is still over the playing field ,read : Since the receiver touched the kick with the ball inside the sideline plane he is considered to have caused the ball to be out of bounds. The ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot...".(2004 Simplified & Illustrated; pg. 43). Every year some correct cases & illustrations are removed to make room for newer ones. There hasn't been a rule change to effect this situation.

You witness the extent of my computer abilities on this forum, if any of you have a fax and the ability to post, PM your fax # to me and I'll fax it for the whole world to see.

Ralph / All,
Here are copies of 2005 and 2018 S&I 4-3-1. It appears the NFHS wanted this to be R's responsibility in 2005 and who knows what they were trying do in 2018.  Unfortunately this play discussion shows up almost every year (somewhere) and we go thru the same discussion.
In my opinion, the NFHS had it correct in 2005.  R should be responsible for causing the ball to be dead in the field of play (carefully read Rule 4-3-1) and it should not be considered a KOB.  After all, R did technically "touch the ball in the field of play (inbounds).
I wish the HFHS would directly address this issue with "clear cut wording" as well as a case play to specifically address this topic.

[CalhounLJ]

I think these rulings are conflicting and confusing. Notice the the phrasing:
(A) - Since the receiver possesses the free kick BEFORE HE touched OOB, with the ball inside the SL plane, he is considered to have caused the ball to go OOB. I can understand that. If R runs up, catches the ball while inbounds or airborne having never contacted the ground OOB, then steps or lands OOB, I agree he has caused the ball to be OOB. I admit the "ball inside the SL plane" is confusing. Does that mean if he's standing inbounds and catches a kick which is outside the plane, it's dead? I think not. I think he can advance it.

(B) Since there was no touching by R prior to the PLAYER being OOB, K has caused the ball to be OOB This seems to imply that if the player IS OOB when he touches the kick, it's a free kick OOB. What is different about that and the OP?

Also, 4-3-1 does nothing to clear up the issue. If anything, it supports the assumption that a ball in the field of play touched by a player OOB is considered to be OOB.
 
4-3-1 . . . When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline. When the ball becomes dead in the field of play because of touching a person who is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball.

This is very true, especially on a scrimmage play. If a fumble rolling along in the field of play is touched by a player straddling the sideline, the ball is dead immediately. It is considered OOB at the spot, and belongs to the fumbling team, because it has never been possessed by the player it touched. In my opinion, the free kick is the same way. A free kick in flight, touched by a player who is OOB, is considered to be OOB at that point. Since R is OOB, it's impossible for him to have possessed the kick before he touched OOB. Therefore, it's a free kick OOB.

One more thing and I'm done. If I'm not mistaken, this casebook play is the only place in the rules where the sideline plane comes into play in regard to possession. At no other point do we make a determination whether a ball is OOB based on it being inside/outside the sideline plane when touched. it's true the plane comes into play at the goal line, but even then we have the goalline extended to make it clear the position of the ball over fair/foul (for lack of a better term) doesn't factor in as much as the inbounds status of the player. This is not baseball, where the position of the ball is vital in regard to fair/foul. In football, it's the touching of the ball in relation to inbounds/out of bounds that matters. A ball that is inbounds is considered to be inbounds until it touches something oob. Touching something oob does not change the status of the ball. A pass is still a pass, a fumble is still a fumble, and a kick is still a kick.
I can't seem to make sense of this any other way.

[Magician]

I think these rulings are conflicting and confusing. Notice the the phrasing:
(A) - Since the receiver possesses the free kick BEFORE HE touched OOB, with the ball inside the SL plane, he is considered to have caused the ball to go OOB. I can understand that. If R runs up, catches the ball while inbounds or airborne having never contacted the ground OOB, then steps or lands OOB, I agree he has caused the ball to be OOB. I admit the "ball inside the SL plane" is confusing. Does that mean if he's standing inbounds and catches a kick which is outside the plane, it's dead? I think not. I think he can advance it.

(B) Since there was no touching by R prior to the PLAYER being OOB, K has caused the ball to be OOB This seems to imply that if the player IS OOB when he touches the kick, it's a free kick OOB. What is different about that and the OP?

Also, 4-3-1 does nothing to clear up the issue. If anything, it supports the assumption that a ball in the field of play touched by a player OOB is considered to be OOB.
 
4-3-1 . . . When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline. When the ball becomes dead in the field of play because of touching a person who is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball.

This is very true, especially on a scrimmage play. If a fumble rolling along in the field of play is touched by a player straddling the sideline, the ball is dead immediately. It is considered OOB at the spot, and belongs to the fumbling team, because it has never been possessed by the player it touched. In my opinion, the free kick is the same way. A free kick in flight, touched by a player who is OOB, is considered to be OOB at that point. Since R is OOB, it's impossible for him to have possessed the kick before he touched OOB. Therefore, it's a free kick OOB.

One more thing and I'm done. If I'm not mistaken, this casebook play is the only place in the rules where the sideline plane comes into play in regard to possession. At no other point do we make a determination whether a ball is OOB based on it being inside/outside the sideline plane when touched. it's true the plane comes into play at the goal line, but even then we have the goalline extended to make it clear the position of the ball over fair/foul (for lack of a better term) doesn't factor in as much as the inbounds status of the player. This is not baseball, where the position of the ball is vital in regard to fair/foul. In football, it's the touching of the ball in relation to inbounds/out of bounds that matters. A ball that is inbounds is considered to be inbounds until it touches something oob. Touching something oob does not change the status of the ball. A pass is still a pass, a fumble is still a fumble, and a kick is still a kick.
I can't seem to make sense of this any other way.

I believe the plane comment is a carryover from when the rule actually included that and it's never been cleaned up. It's not relevant as the answer is the same regardless of the location of the ball in relation to the sideline plane.

[KDJBBBJ]

Let me try with the way I was taught and understand it.  If R is accidently touching OOB and the ball is in or over the field of play, either in the air or on the ground, when he touches it, then the ball becomes dead and R caused it to be OOB. It was OOB touched by R, no penalty. R touching it caused it to be OOB.  If the ball was outside of the field of play, sideline plane, and R touches it while accidently touching OOB then it is OOB by K and a penalty. The ball was physically OOB and R's touching of it caused it to stay OOB.   R & B can accidently go OOB and still participate leagally.  It would be illegal participation if he intentionally, or on purpose, stepped out of bounds and participated in the play to make the ball OOB, touch the runner as he ran by, or anything else.  It seems as I am reading these comments that there is only two ways to be OOB pushed, or intentionally, but B or R can accidently go out of bounds with no cosequnces if they return at the first opportunity.     
 

[refjeff]

Let me try with the way I was taught and understand it.  If R is accidently touching OOB and the ball is in or over the field of play, either in the air or on the ground, when he touches it, then the ball becomes dead and R caused it to be OOB. It was OOB touched by R, no penalty. R touching it caused it to be OOB.  If the ball was outside of the field of play, sideline plane, and R touches it while accidently touching OOB then it is OOB by K and a penalty. The ball was physically OOB and R's touching of it caused it to stay OOB.   R & B can accidently go OOB and still participate leagally.  It would be illegal participation if he intentionally, or on purpose, stepped out of bounds and participated in the play to make the ball OOB, touch the runner as he ran by, or anything else.  It seems as I am reading these comments that there is only two ways to be OOB pushed, or intentionally, but B or R can accidently go out of bounds with no cosequnces if they return at the first opportunity.   

  I agree, but I cannot find wording in the Rule Book or Case Book that supports us. 

The 2005 Illustrated Book appears to support us, but that's an airborne kick.  Does that make a difference?  I wouldn't think so, but ...

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could find the words.

And I do miss the artwork of those old illustrated books.

[Ralph Damren]

The 2000 change was to prevent a kick being that had been muffed by R but last touched by K before going OOB to no longer be a foul. We felt that was unfair to K.. I was on the Editorial Committee then, and we were asked to write cases for the change. We felt it was also felt it was unfair if a kick that had yet left the field of play to become OOB by rule for touching a OOB R player. While the kick is now OOB by rule, there was no foul committed. IMHO, there has not been any rule change to nullify the case & illustration.

[Ump33]

The 2000 change was to prevent a kick being that had been muffed by R but last touched by K before going OOB to no longer be a foul. We felt that was unfair to K.. I was on the Editorial Committee then, and we were asked to write cases for the change. We felt it was also felt it was unfair if a kick that had yet left the field of play to become OOB by rule for touching a OOB R player. While the kick is now OOB by rule, there was no foul committed. IMHO, there has not been any rule change to nullify the case & illustration.

Ralph, 6-1-9 states "...A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R."  I wish the NFHS would clarify if R touches a kick that is inbounds "in/over the field of play" and if R happens to be standing OB at the time of touching, it will be R's ball at the inbounds spot.
I think to make this a KOB is unfair to K.

[refjeff]

Ralph, 6-1-9 states "...A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R."  I wish the NFHS would clarify if R touches a kick that is inbounds "in/over the field of play" and if R happens to be standing OB at the time of touching, it will be R's ball at the inbounds spot.
I think to make this a KOB is unfair to K.

  Maybe that is what 6.1.10 says.  Clearly if a free kick is muffed by R inbounds and then the ball goes goes OOB, it's R's ball at the inbounds spot.  But also if the ball is touched inbounds by an R player OOB it's R's ball at the inbounds spot.

Please, someone less confused than I tell me definitively that this is correct.

[AlUpstateNY]

In the NFHS world; 2-29-3":"A loose ball is OOB when "IT" touches anything, including a player or game official THAT is OOB.

2-29-1: "A player, or other person, is OOB when any part of the person, other than another player or game official, that is on or outside the sideline or end line.

2-1-3:[/i]  " A LOOSE BALL is a pass, fumble or KICK.........

6-1-9: " A FREE KICK   shall not be kicked OOB between the goal lines UNTOUCHED INBOUNDS BY "R"......((Causing Penalty #5, pg 92 "FreeKick OOB" by "K")

6-1-10: "If a FREE KICK GOES OOB between the goal lines TOUCHED INBOUNDS BY "R", the ball is put in play, by "R" at the inbounds spot

Essentially, the Free Kick is responsible for "IT"going OOB when it touches the ground, or anything else,(including a player or game official who is OOB) THAT IS ALREADY OOB, (Causing Penalty #5, pg 92 "FreeKick OOB" by "K") with the EXCEPTION that should 6-1-10 apply, there is no foul and the ball belongs to "R", at the Inbounds Spot.

It seems somewhat clear that the rule sequence is designed to caution K "to avoid kicking a Free Kick OOB", allowing for a FK that was touched inbounds by "R", before going OOB, was NOT K's responsibility..

[CalhounLJ]

I think we all agree its unfair to K for R to touch a ball in flight that would normally land inbounds causing that ball to be oob.

The problem is the solution. The solution goes against the grain of all accepted interpretations of oob.


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[Morningrise]

Why not just make an editorial change so that the foul is only for free kicks declared OOB outside the field of play without earlier having been touched by R

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, there are two parts to this :

IS THE KICK OOB WHEN INBOUNDS KICK TOUCHES OOB R?  Yes, the kick was OOB ,BY RULE, when it touched OOB R.

IS THIS A FOUL ON K?  No, like a bouncing kick near the sidelines that deflects off inbounds R, R was responsible for the kick going OOB.

The following is the case I submitted back in 2000.....

6.1.8 SITUATION C: R1 is running near a sideline as he attempts to catch a free kick in flight. R1 has : (a) both feet inbounds; or (b) one foot on the sideline, when he reaches through the plane of the sideline. The ball bounces off his hands and lands out of bounds. The ball was beyond the sideline plane when touched by R1; or (c} same as (b) except the ball is not beyond the sideline plane when touched.
RULING: In(a) the ball is not out of bounds until it hit the ground there. Since R1 touched it, the ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot. In (b), since R1 is out of bounds when the ball is touched, the kicker has caused the ball to be out of bounds as it was BEYOND THE PLANE OF THE SIDELINE WHEN FIRST TOUCHED BY R1, in (c), R1 HAS CAUSED THE BALL TO BE OUT OF BOUNDS.

The mechanics of 5-man puts 2 officials on each sideline in ample position to rule on this.