Author Topic: Refresher course  (Read 707 times)

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Refresher course
« on: August 03, 2023, 02:10:40 PM »
8-4-3, ART. 3 . . . If during a successful field goal, a foul by R occurs, K is given the choice of:
a. Accepting the penalty and replaying the down following enforcement; or
b. Accepting the result of the play and enforcement of the penalty from the succeeding spot.

Play: K kicks a successful field goal as time expires in the 2nd quarter. R fouls during the kick. K chooses B. Where will the penalty be enforced from?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2023, 02:36:33 PM »
Second half kickoff (3-3-4a)

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2023, 02:40:21 PM »
I'll buy that. Question 2:
10-4-2 EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

K punts to R as time expires in the 2nd quarter. K fouls during the kick. R chooses to apply the exception. Where will the penalty be enforced from?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 02:49:49 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2023, 03:22:07 PM »
Untimed down for R under 3-2-3a after enforcement of K's foul from wherever the kick or run ended. (10-5-1j sets up fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down prior to the end of the kick to use the 10-4-2 Exception enforcement.)

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2023, 03:33:06 PM »
Untimed down for R under 3-2-3a after enforcement of K's foul from wherever the kick or run ended. (10-5-1j sets up fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down prior to the end of the kick to use the 10-4-2 Exception enforcement.)

So then, not succeeding spot?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2023, 03:59:24 PM »
Correct. "Succeeding spot" is clearly doing a lot of heavy lifting in the rule book and is about to give itself a hernia.

Lets see how NCAA handles it:

Quote
ARTICLE 4. Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team other than kick-catch interference (Rule 6-4) during a free kick play or a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the neutral zone (except field goal attempts) are enforced by rule either at the previous spot as the basic spot (Exception: Penalty option is a safety for fouls in Team A’s end zone) or at the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B.

Yep. That would be better.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2023, 04:15:42 PM »
The enforcement IS from the succeeding spot as the basic spot here as defined under 10-4-2 Exception.  I agree they could probably recategorize this in the book and stop calling it an exception but this wording came before the current mess.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Refresher course
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2023, 04:34:17 PM »
The enforcement IS from the succeeding spot as the basic spot here as defined under 10-4-2 Exception.  I agree they could probably recategorize this in the book and stop calling it an exception but this wording came before the current mess.
IMO this was the beginning of the mess. If they had only used the ncaa language in the exception…

I agree the wording in the ncaa rule book is correct.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2023, 04:37:43 PM »
The enforcement IS from the succeeding spot as the basic spot here as defined under 10-4-2 Exception.  I agree they could probably recategorize this in the book and stop calling it an exception but this wording came before the current mess.
The spot of enforcement is not the succeeding spot in the exception, at least not the one defined in the rule book. The enforcement spot is the where the ball became dead in R’s possession. Then, after the penalty is enforced, then and only then does THAT spot become the succeeding spot.

Think about it like this: Suppose R doesn't want the penalty at all. They've had a good half, and just want to go to the locker room, so they decline the penalty. Where will the ball next be put into play? 3rd quarter kickoff, right? That's the succeeding spot. There will never be a situation where the ball would be put in play where it became dead at the end of the 2nd quarter.


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« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 04:45:21 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2023, 05:47:24 PM »
The succeeding spot is defined as "where the ball would next be snapped.... had the foul not occurred".  While your scenario did not give us the end result of the play, R apparently obtained the ball either at the end of the kick or the end of the run because they opted for the exception according to your post.  Whatever yardline that was is the spot "where the ball would next be snapped ....if the foul had not occurred".  But a foul did occur so R may now accept enforcement from that succeeding spot under the Exception to 10-4-2.

If I'm missing something, please tell me what it is.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2023, 06:04:30 PM »
The succeeding spot is defined as "where the ball would next be snapped.... had the foul not occurred".  While your scenario did not give us the end result of the play, R apparently obtained the ball either at the end of the kick or the end of the run because they opted for the exception according to your post.  Whatever yardline that was is the spot "where the ball would next be snapped ....if the foul had not occurred".  But a foul did occur so R may now accept enforcement from that succeeding spot under the Exception to 10-4-2.

If I'm missing something, please tell me what it is.

You're missing the fact that if the foul had not occurred during the last play of the second quarter, the ball would next be put into play on the kickoff in the 3rd quarter. That's the definition of succeeding spot. It's been used that way since it was put into the rule book, until this exception, and now this debacle of a new rule change.

Read this again slowly:
Think about it like this: Suppose R doesn't want the penalty at all. They've had a good half, and just want to go to the locker room, so they decline the penalty. Where will the ball next be put into play? 3rd quarter kickoff, right? That's the succeeding spot. There will never be a situation where the ball would be put in play where it became dead at the end of the 2nd quarter if there is no foul, or the foul is declined.

This situation highlights the succeeding spot - the place where the ball would be put into play HAD THERE BEEN NO FOUL. If there had not been a foul, or the foul is declined, we would go to halftime once the play becomes dead, provided time runs out during the down.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 06:08:03 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Refresher course
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2023, 07:04:21 PM »
This type of play was hashed out for 4 pages starting, believe it or not 10-4-2021. We need to eliminate the option on FG attempts. The only time that a team would be disenfranchised would be the one who uses a FG type of kick for a punt. That don't happen very often. Have a great year!