Blown Up Screen Play - Ineligible Downfield

[NVFOA_Ump]

Another one from last night.  1st & 10 from the A20 yard line after a touchback.  A attempts to run a delayed center screen but back A-24 gets caught in traffic.  A QB runs right then doubles back left and finally as he approaches the line of scrimmage near the sideline dumps the ball into the 3rd row to avoid getting hit.  Pass crosses the LOS after it's well OB.  Near the end of the play A-55, the snapper, throws a block on a B defensive back directly in front of the back judge whose is 20-25 yards downfield.  What do we have and whose call is this?

[ncwingman]

That would be an ineligible downfield. In order to legally "dump" the ball, the QB must throw the ball beyond the LOS, which means all the usual downfield pass restrictions are in effect.

One could potentially make the argument that it's OPI for an A player blocking downfield during a legal forward pass. By rule, I would agree that it is. By philosophy, since the ball was dumped into the third row, the downfield blocking didn't hinder the B player from making a bona fide attempt at catching the pass. And before anybody jumps on me that 7-5-11c only applies to B players, this is the same philosophical reasoning behind not calling holding on the right side of the line when the run goes to the left.

As for whose call it is, this is the odd situation where the BJ could make that call for ineligible downfield -- I've personally done it before when I realized that A55 was standing next to me as the pass was coming in. As a BJ, I wouldn't go fish in the U's pond and claim A55 was blocking 5 steps too far downfield, but if he's in the BJ's pond 20 yards downfield he can absolutely make that call himself. If you go with OPI, then BJ has that call all game long.

[CalhounLJ]

I think the question is whether the pass is considered to be a Legal forward pass or not, because we can only have ID on a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone. In most cases intentional grounding is an illegal forward pass so that answer is clear. The muddy part is whether the exception makes the pass a legal forward pass or makes the act of throwing an illegal forward pass legal.

*Upon further review, it seems like the casebook play treats this as a legal forward pass. In discussing the exception the wording is “the pass is legal.” While not completely definite (it would have been much clearer to say “this is a legal forward pass) a liberal reading would indicate it’s treated as such.

[bama_stripes]

One could also argue that the ILD should be ignored, since A obviously didn’t gain any advantage.

[CalhounLJ]

One could also argue that the ILD should be ignored, since A obviously didn’t gain any advantage.

Most certainly. In fact, I think practically speaking, this is the most sensible option.

[ncwingman]

One could also argue that the ILD should be ignored, since A obviously didn’t gain any advantage.

Yes, but...

I don't disagree entirely, but you could make an argument that they did gain an advantage. A55 goes downfield to block. An astute B player will recognize that they've forfeited their right to pass the ball downfield and this is now a running play. As they've cornered the QB in the backfield, he just heaves the ball to save yardage rather than get tackled for a loss -- and gets a "free" pass play when the defense surmised that he wasn't allowed to do so anymore.

That's not an iron clad argument, because the QB could have thrown the ball at the feet of the eligible screen pass intended receiver, in a manner that was deliberately incomplete to save the yards, but would be a much riskier throw.

In a related, but different, scenario that comes up at rules clinics every year -- similar screen pass, the entire O-line is 5 yards downfield blocking and the QB throws the ball to the back, A24, who is still behind the LOS -- but he gets too much air under it and the pass sails over A24's head, landing incomplete, but beyond the LOS. Ineligible downfield? There's no real advantage gained with a poorly thrown pass, but *by rule* that's a foul.

[CalhounLJ]

Yes, but...

I don't disagree entirely, but you could make an argument that they did gain an advantage. A55 goes downfield to block. An astute B player will recognize that they've forfeited their right to pass the ball downfield and this is now a running play. As they've cornered the QB in the backfield, he just heaves the ball to save yardage rather than get tackled for a loss -- and gets a "free" pass play when the defense surmised that he wasn't allowed to do so anymore.

That's not an iron clad argument, because the QB could have thrown the ball at the feet of the eligible screen pass intended receiver, in a manner that was deliberately incomplete to save the yards, but would be a much riskier throw.

In a related, but different, scenario that comes up at rules clinics every year -- similar screen pass, the entire O-line is 5 yards downfield blocking and the QB throws the ball to the back, A24, who is still behind the LOS -- but he gets too much air under it and the pass sails over A24's head, landing incomplete, but beyond the LOS. Ineligible downfield? There's no real advantage gained with a poorly thrown pass, but *by rule* that's a foul.

True. By rule that’s a foul. But I’d also argue to ignore that. It’s in the same vein as a receiver running the wrong route and the qb throwing to an unoccupied area. If it’s an obvious busted play, I’m not throwing IG on that either.

[Ralph Damren]

If the nearsighted grandma ,setting in the last row of the bleachers, saw the ineligibles downfield ...maybe  ....if not no.

[bossman72]

Just call IDP and move on.

OPI would be the poopy end of the stick to grab.

[lawdog]

From what I've seen different places have advised differently on calling or not calling ineligibles downfield on these type groundings.  Not sure there is a correct answer for everywhere.  Check with the powers that be where you are.

[KWH]

1) Throwing IDP is completely harmless as, the likelihood is the penalty would be declined since the offended team would rather count the down than take the penalty and repeat the down.
2) Not throwing the flag for IDP leaves you vulnerable as if there is a defensive foul they would offset.  Not throwing a flag for IDP leaves you with the defensive foul being enforced.  - Not a good thing