2023 NFHS Power Point

[bama_stripes]

Here we go again.

The 2023 PP has 3 slides concerning the new Defenseless Receiver rule, which show examples of what is not a foul.  However, the captions all state “This is not a defenseless receiver...”

The receivers shown are definitely defenseless.

[CalhounLJ]

Here we go again.

The 2023 PP has 3 slides concerning the new Defenseless Receiver rule, which show examples of what is not a foul.  However, the captions all state “This is not a defenseless receiver...”

The receivers shown are definitely defenseless.

I saw that too. The hits on the defenseless players are legal, but the hits do not change the status of the player. He is still defenseless. 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[zebraken]

That’s correct. It’s when the hits occur that determines the players status

[CalhounLJ]

That’s correct. It’s when the hits occur that determines the players status

No it's not. The player status is determined by his action/area of concentration. Whether another player contacts him or not doesn't change that.

[zebraken]

No it's not. The player status is determined by his action/area of concentration. Whether another player contacts him or not doesn't change that.

Until the foul occurs the players action or area of concentration is of little import. Concerning defenseless player fouls, if a player attempting to catch a pass is fouled he is given ‘receiver’ status and the foul is enforced accordingly(previous spot). If a player is fouled while running with the ball is fouled he is given ‘runner’ status and foul is enforced accordingly (end of run). If the foul while the ball is dead he is neither (succeeding spot). So it’s not whether a player contacts him it’s when another player contacts him that determines his status.

[bama_stripes]

Until the foul occurs the players action or area of concentration is of little import. Concerning defenseless player fouls, if a player attempting to catch a pass is fouled he is given ‘receiver’ status and the foul is enforced accordingly(previous spot). If a player is fouled while running with the ball is fouled he is given ‘runner’ status and foul is enforced accordingly (end of run). If the foul while the ball is dead he is neither (succeeding spot). So it’s not whether a player contacts him it’s when another player contacts him that determines his status.

You’re missing the point.  The slides show an airborne receiver in a defenseless position, yet state that he is not a defenseless receiver.  If he’s not a defenseless receiver, then it doesn’t matter how he’s contacted for purposes of this rule.

[zebraken]

Ok, I understand but I wasn’t relating my comments to the slides. I didn’t see them. I was responding to the comment that a players status is determined by his actions or area of concentration. I disagree with that. What do you think about it?

[CalhounLJ]

Ok, I understand but I wasn’t relating my comments to the slides. I didn’t see them. I was responding to the comment that a players status is determined by his actions or area of concentration. I disagree with that. What do you think about it?

That’s the rule book definition of a defenseless player.

[zebraken]

That’s the rule book definition of a defenseless player.

I don’t disagree with that but my point is this. The defensive player label isn’t a consideration until there is a foul on him and it’s important to know his status when the defenseless foul occurs to determine the enforcement spot. Can we agree on that?

[Snapper]

Here we go again.

The 2023 PP has 3 slides concerning the new Defenseless Receiver rule, which show examples of what is not a foul.  However, the captions all state “This is not a defenseless receiver...”

The receivers shown are definitely defenseless.

Well, they have an error on another of their slides as well.  The one where A steps on the endline, jumps into the air from out of bounds, and bats the pass back to another A player in the ez.  The caption says incomplete pass and an illegal participation foul.  Yet, if A inadvertently stepped out of bounds, jumped from oob and touched the pass, he has not returned inbounds yet.  So no foul, just an incomplete pass.  If he purposefully goes oob, then I could buy a foul in this situation.  But not if it's inadvertent.  (The whole illegal participation for a receiver that accidentally steps oob is one of the worst Fed rules anyway, but that's a separate issue/argument.)

So I guess when we look at anything that comes from the Fed editors nowadays, it may be best to just try to grasp their main point.  The editors don't seem to be good about details lately.  That's frustrating to many people, I know.

[CalhounLJ]

I don’t disagree with that but my point is this. The defensive player label isn’t a consideration until there is a foul on him and it’s important to know his status when the defenseless foul occurs to determine the enforcement spot. Can we agree on that?

yes. I agree with that.

[Snapper]

I don’t disagree with that but my point is this. The defensive player label isn’t a consideration until there is a foul on him and it’s important to know his status when the defenseless foul occurs to determine the enforcement spot. Can we agree on that?

I think it would have been wiser of the Fed editors had they left the definitions of a defenseless player in Rule 2 alone.  And then added their clarification as to what actions were legal/illegal against a receiver into Rule 9.  That would have better separated the concept of a defenseless player and what actions against him are legal or not.

A defenseless player is "defenseless" until he clearly is not.  For example, a receiver who has clearly transitioned to a runner is then no longer a defenseless player.  Until he does transition, he is defenseless.  We have to determine what action against him is legal or not.

Then for the purposes of Fed penalty enforcement, we have to determine when a foul occurred.  Whas it during a loose ball play or a running play?  (NCAA enforcement is much simpler here, they'd simply tack-on any Team B personal foul during a pass play.)