Author Topic: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)  (Read 5693 times)

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Offline Farooq

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Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« on: September 29, 2020, 12:07:28 PM »
https://youtu.be/lOaW-CpzXzo
Interesting episode from game Chiefs - Ravens
I thought snap infraction is for simulating snap, when snapper moves a ball forward, lifts it or moves it in a manner that obviously simulates snap. It was not a case in game Chiefs vs Ravens, when #68 snapped ball. Ball hit his butt first and fell on the ground. He didnt hold the ball and it left his hand. I didnt see either he moved the ball before snap. Announcer claimed that foul occured because ball fell on the ground which is nonsense.

Rule 8 Section 7 Article 1 "A direct snap from center to a player in the backfield, a muffed hand-to-hand snap, or a snap that is untouched by any player are backward passes, and the ball remains alive"

Ball should be alive, untouched snap counts as backward pass.

" ARTICLE 4. LEGAL SNAP. A snap is a backward pass. The snap must be received by a player who is not on the line at the snap, unless the ball first strikes the ground. If the ball first strikes the ground, or is muffed by an eligible backfield receiver, or quarterback under center, it can be recovered and advanced by any player."
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:09:22 PM by Farooq »

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2020, 12:11:45 PM »
If I created topic in not appropriate section pardon me, please.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:13:17 PM by Farooq »

Offline js in sc

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2020, 12:23:14 PM »
I don't know about the NFL, but this looks like a variation of the old FSU 'fumblerooskie" play. Planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper which has been outlawed in NCAA and NFHS.  Comments by someone with more knowlrdge?

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2020, 12:32:29 PM »
In NFL there is no "planned loose ball" rule like in NCAA and NFHS, but I doubt they tried it there. Flag was for snap infraction. Its strange for me. I really couldnt see snapper somehow manipulated with a ball other than snap. He moved ball backward quick and released it. 
What is more strange that there are no mentions of "snap infraction" in NFL rulebook 2020
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:00:43 PM by Farooq »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2020, 01:04:37 PM »

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2020, 01:16:18 PM »
Perhaps you should read what makes a legal snap.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2020-nfl-rulebook/#section-6-putting-the-ball-in-play

1) quick and continuous motion of the hand or hands of the snapper.   Yes
2) The ball must leave or be taken from his hands during this motion.  Yes
3) ball was on the ground before snap.   Yes
4) Snapper didnt lift, didnt move ball forward or execute other actions which could simulate snap.  Yes

« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:18:28 PM by Farooq »

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2020, 01:24:44 PM »
I suggest that snapper flipped ball slightly up behind himself and it was considered as movement of the ball other than snap

Offline bossman72

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2020, 01:39:00 PM »
This looks like a legal snap to me.  Even if the ball slips from the snapper's hands, it's legal.

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2020, 01:43:56 PM »

This guy obviously noticed something

Can a snapper lift other hand before snap in such manner? Maybe his other hand was on the ground (3-point) and he lifted it before snap.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:58:35 PM by Farooq »

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2020, 01:57:16 PM »
Not sure 100% but I think that is a case there

"Item 1. Interior Lineman. It is a False Start if an interior lineman (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance, and then changes his position or moves the hand that is on the ground."
Probably second hand of snapper was on the ground and he had moved it before he lifted ball for snap

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2020, 02:51:51 PM »
Not sure 100% but I think that is a case there

"Item 1. Interior Lineman. It is a False Start if an interior lineman (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance, and then changes his position or moves the hand that is on the ground."
Probably second hand of snapper was on the ground and he had moved it before he lifted ball for snap
I did not see that.

Has anyone considered that the calling official may have made a mistake?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2020, 03:34:57 PM »
Quote
Ball hit his butt first

That would not be a "quick and continuous motion".


Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2020, 04:34:54 PM »
That would not be a "quick and continuous motion".
 
He had released ball before it hit his butt. But I can agree that snap infraction there could be when center flipped ball up. Still not sure. This episode bothers me

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2020, 05:52:39 PM »
 
He had released ball before it hit his butt. But I can agree that snap infraction there could be when center flipped ball up. Still not sure. This episode bothers me

With thanks to HLfromNC, for providing NFL Rules, it would seem, after referencing Rule 7, Article 4 when a snap is muffed by either the QB or any eligible receiver, it is treated as a fumble, BUT, if I follow the OP, in the play in question the ball was dropped/muffed by the snapper, before anyone else touched it. 

Rather than allow action to continue, it seems the call of "Illegal snap" serving to kill the play, makes sense and avoided a lot of potential, unnecessary, confusion.   

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2020, 06:50:22 PM »
First you say it hit his butt then you say he released it before he hit his butt.  Its either one or the other but either way he caused and that is not a continuous motion.

Quote
This episode bothers me
  When you get to the NFL, you can let them know.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 06:53:56 PM by HLinNC »

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2020, 04:04:48 AM »
With thanks to HLfromNC, for providing NFL Rules, it would seem, after referencing Rule 7, Article 4 when a snap is muffed by either the QB or any eligible receiver, it is treated as a fumble, BUT, if I follow the OP, in the play in question the ball was dropped/muffed by the snapper, before anyone else touched it. 

Rather than allow action to continue, it seems the call of "Illegal snap" serving to kill the play, makes sense and avoided a lot of potential, unnecessary, confusion.

SECTION 7 - BACKWARD PASS AND FUMBLE
ARTICLE 1. BACKWARD PASS
A runner may throw a backward pass at any time (3-22-5). Players of either team may advance after catching a backward pass, or recovering a backward pass after it touches the ground.

Exception: See actions to conserve time (4-7-1).

Note: A direct snap from center to a player in the backfield, a muffed hand-to-hand snap, or a snap that is untouched by any player are backward passes, and the ball remains alive.

Offline Farooq

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2020, 04:08:45 AM »
First you say it hit his butt then you say he released it before he hit his butt.  Its either one or the other but either way he caused and that is not a continuous motion.
  When you get to the NFL, you can let them know.
Thats why I posted video for you to watch it. Your point is not convincing. There was a continious & quick movement of hand with a ball and hand released ball. No foul if it hit butt  after release.
It could be not quick and continious if snapper somehow holded ball before release
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 04:34:30 AM by Farooq »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2020, 06:58:57 AM »
Quote
Your point is not convincing.

But the NFL official that called it and I agree so your "point" is inconsequential.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Illegal snap infraction (NFL)
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2020, 09:54:22 AM »
Thats why I posted video for you to watch it. Your point is not convincing.

The often considerable benefit of film review of actual game activity, from an officiating training perspective, is that it provides ; opportunity to assess and review essential factors associated with officiating, ie: positioning, rule knowledge, perspective, game management, etc. 

The play being reviewed is LONG OVER and the actual ruling made is (usually) not subject to revision (at least at the NFHS level) and has NO ACTUAL CONSTRUCTIVE RELEVANCE to the review.  The objective should be in reviewing, the above ancillary factors, to assess and learn if they were correctly applied and/or were appropriate for the SPECIFIC circumstance being reviewed.  Visually identifying inadequacies, can be an excellent opportunity to encourage correction, or avoidance of bad behavior and/or clarification and identification of proper behavior.

It's worthwhile to remember that on-field, live action, instantaneous officiating decisions are made from completely different angles, distances, through unique visual obstacles, in an environment often filled with constant movement and distraction completely different in many ways from camera angles, which are TOTALLY different depending on game location, Crew size and level (NFHS, NCAA & NFL).

Fortunately, focusing on general  officiating procedures, positioning, behavior rather than specific outcome transcend the differences in game level, crew size and rule differences by the simple application of those factors by the individual observer's application, rather than the outcome of the play being observed (and long ago decided). 

The conclusion, of the actual play unfolding, is relevant ONLY to THAT play, in THAT game at THAT level whereas the observation of the ancillary actions of the covering officials (positioning, movement, behavior, response, follow-up, etc.) can be of enormous value from a constructive assessment of what may have been done properly, or not, by the covering officials.  Arguing about how, or why, THAT specific call (may have been) made, is an absolute waste of time and has little, if any, bearing on what may be constructively learned from reviewing the film.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 09:58:31 AM by AlUpstateNY »