Author Topic: Another Another Interesting Play (Read 1791 times)

HeadAlphaGeek · « **on:** October 31, 2023, 01:35:30 PM »

This happened last night.

A 21 B24 3 seconds left in 4th quarter.

A 4/5 at B20
A lines up for FG.
B blocks FG. Ball is rolling around on ground. B sideline rushes field in excitement. B coach kicks the ball while still on the ground.
A picks up ball and scores TD.

Ruling?

ElvisLives · « **Reply #1 on:** October 31, 2023, 02:28:26 PM »

Quote from: HeadAlphaGeek on October 31, 2023, 01:35:30 PM

This happened last night.

A 21 B24 3 seconds left in 4th quarter.

A 4/5 at B20
A lines up for FG.
B blocks FG. Ball is rolling around on ground. B sideline rushes field in excitement. B coach kicks the ball while still on the ground.
A picks up ball and scores TD.

Ruling?

I need to stay out of Fed discussions (although NCAA has the similar dead-ball rule regarding a loose ball touching something inbounds other than a player, official, player’s equipment, or official’s equipment). But, all the more reason to have electrified fences separating the coaches from the field.

HeadAlphaGeek · « **Reply #2 on:** October 31, 2023, 02:36:38 PM »

The question we had a group was does the become dead when the coach kicks the ball? 4-2-2e3

Touches, or is touched by, anything inbounds other than a player, substitute, replaced player, a game official, the ground or authorized equipment. In this case the ball will be put in play in accordance with the procedure for an inadvertent whistle as in 4-2-3b.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #3 on:** November 01, 2023, 06:32:53 AM »

IMHO, this would be a case for 1-1-6 (the GOD rule). While 4-2-2e3 is more of the dawg/drunk rule , where a confused dawg or a drunken fan wandering out on the field. I would apply 9-6-4a I-illegal participation -untimed down, and a field goal attempt from 10 yards closer to the pipes. Now @ B's 10, A can try another FG (to tie) or TD to win.

While the B players & coach entering the field created the IP, the coach (having a flashback to his soccer daze) kicking the ball caused it to be dead. Why ?

one might ask

. Knowing a blocked PAT kick becoming dead may have caused their unfounded excitement.

bama_stripes · « **Reply #4 on:** November 01, 2023, 07:53:23 AM »

Signal a TD for A and head for the hills. I’m not bailing B out by declaring the ball dead.

HeadAlphaGeek · « **Reply #5 on:** November 01, 2023, 08:19:39 AM »

Call TD and heading for the hills is exactly what was done on field. This was not our game but a game in our state. From a study standpoint, we feel the correct call would be to call IP and declare the ball dead. Enforce the IP half the distance and have an untimed down.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2023, 10:48:35 AM »

While I understand the tempation of

and racing toward the parking lot, IMHO, this ending would cause more controversy than enforcing IP and announcing that the ball became dead with the coach's kick. We have rule support for that....and remember, K had their original kick blocked.

ElvisLives · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2023, 11:09:08 AM »

I’m tellin’ ya - mandatory electrical invisible boundary dog collars on all coaches would solve the problem.

sir55 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2023, 11:38:18 AM »

Where was the ball when A picked it up and ran with it?

ElvisLives · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2023, 11:48:50 AM »

Quote from: sir55 on November 01, 2023, 11:38:18 AM

Where was the ball when A picked it up and ran with it?

Now, that IS an important question, if you allow the ball to remain alive. Beyond or behind the NZ?

HeadAlphaGeek · « **Reply #10 on:** November 01, 2023, 12:06:22 PM »

About 10 yards behind the LOS.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #11 on:** November 01, 2023, 12:32:31 PM »

A foul by B/R when the ball becomes dead behind the LOS = previous spot.

Fatso · « **Reply #12 on:** November 01, 2023, 04:03:17 PM »

Quote from: HeadAlphaGeek on November 01, 2023, 12:06:22 PM

About 10 yards behind the LOS.

So the coach beat the A players to the ball which was 10 yds behind the LOS and then kicked it?

KWH · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2023, 04:27:10 PM »

In my humble opinion these block field goal shenanigans will continue to occur as many mistakenly feel the ball is dead when a Field Goal is blocked (since a PAT is).

Some feel the fix is to allow the ball to remain live when a PAT is blocked with either only allowing K to advance, or allowing both K and R able to advance.

Via an NFHS approved experiment, Oregon experimented (for four years) with allowing the ball to remain live allowing either team to advance for 2 points.

Making this change does open up a box of worms as now you have to dispatch fouls which occur after a change of possession on a try.

The NFHS had issues with creating more exceptions AND extending the game during an untimed down as no time comes off the clock so it failed (albeit barely) both times it was submitted.

The proposal has not been resubmitted for roughly 10 years and I would be interested in others thoughts?

or

HeadAlphaGeek · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2023, 04:51:09 PM »

Quote from: Fatso on November 01, 2023, 04:03:17 PM

So the coach beat the A players to the ball which was 10 yds behind the LOS and then kicked it?

B did not make an attempt till the coaches started screaming at them to pick the ball up.

Snapper · « **Reply #15 on:** November 01, 2023, 05:59:29 PM »

Quote from: KWH on November 01, 2023, 04:27:10 PM

...
The proposal has not been resubmitted for roughly 10 years and I would be interested in others thoughts? or

I like it being alive at other levels. But for the reasons that you stated, I think it's fine to leave it as is for high school.

bama_stripes · « **Reply #16 on:** November 02, 2023, 08:08:35 AM »

Quote from: HeadAlphaGeek on November 01, 2023, 08:19:39 AM

Call TD and heading for the hills is exactly what was done on field. This was not our game but a game in our state. From a study standpoint, we feel the correct call would be to call IP and declare the ball dead. Enforce the IP half the distance and have an untimed down.

OK, I can go along with that. At the point the ball was kicked, we just don’t know what the outcome would have been without the foul.

But let’s change the play just slightly.

While a coach is easily identifiable as a nonplayer, suppose instead it was a uniformed B team member who kicked the ball. We would (likely) have a foul for Illegal Kicking (as well as IP), leave the ball live, and A would still score a TD. But in all the confusion, who’s to know if the B team member was a player, or came off the bench?

Now what?

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2023, 08:16:56 AM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on November 02, 2023, 08:08:35 AM

OK, I can go along with that. At the point the ball was kicked, we just don’t know what the outcome would have been without the foul.

But let’s change the play just slightly.

While a coach is easily identifiable as a nonplayer, suppose instead it was a uniformed B team member who kicked the ball. We would (likely) have a foul for Illegal Kicking (as well as IP), leave the ball live, and A would still score a TD. But in all the confusion, who’s to know if the B team member was a player, or came off the bench?

Now what?

We would be sure of the IK but not the IP. The LOS was R's 20...the IK would bring the ball to R's 10. IP would also bring the ball to R's 10.Untimed down

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2023, 08:42:24 AM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on November 02, 2023, 08:16:56 AM

We would be sure of the IK but not the IP. The LOS was R's 20...the IK would bring the ball to R's 10. IP would also bring the ball to R's 10.Untimed down

Right, but if the IK was by a player and not a coach, the ball would remain live, and in either case (IK or IP), A would obviously decline the penalty and keep the score. Or, because it was a live ball foul and no change of team possession, A could keep the score and the penalty.

HeadAlphaGeek · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2023, 09:29:40 AM »

Here is the play.

https://x.com/ndosports/status/1718842575358980334?s=20

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2023, 09:50:20 AM »

Quote from: HeadAlphaGeek on November 02, 2023, 09:29:40 AM

Here is the play.

https://x.com/ndosports/status/1718842575358980334?s=20

That ball lay on the ground motionless for quite a while. Sans the coach kicking it, I think it probably should have been declared dead. Regardless, A should not get a cheap TD from this. It really should've be dead when the coach kicked it.

lawdog · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2023, 10:06:55 AM »

Quote from: HeadAlphaGeek on November 02, 2023, 09:29:40 AM

Here is the play.

https://x.com/ndosports/status/1718842575358980334?s=20

Read the comments...Good Grief! This is the ending to the 9th grade's perfect season. NINTH GRADE!!!! And some clown saying that he was a 7A official and there was roughing the kicker that should have been called? WHAT? #morons

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2023, 12:18:20 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on November 02, 2023, 09:50:20 AM

That ball lay on the ground motionless for quite a while. Sans the coach kicking it, I think it probably should have been declared dead. Regardless, A should not get a cheap TD from this. It really should've be dead when the coach kicked it.

Agreed. #1. When the coach kicked it the ball was immediately dead by rule and if enforced it would be treated under IW rules.
#2. Regardless of #1, the ball sat motionless for a long time after the "kick" and again by rule would also be dead as no one was attempting to recover and in fact no one was even near the ball for an extended period.

lawdog · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2023, 01:06:14 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 02, 2023, 12:18:20 PM

#2. Regardless of #1, the ball sat motionless for a long time after the "kick" and again by rule would also be dead as no one was attempting to recover and in fact no one was even near the ball for an extended period.

WHAT? The ball literally was never motionless before coach kicked it. It was rolling and bouncing around on the field and he kicked it while it was still bouncing, in fact I'm not sure it wasn't airborn when he did. That is absolutely 100% still a live ball until he kicks it.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #24 on:** November 02, 2023, 02:29:48 PM »

Quote from: lawdog on November 02, 2023, 01:06:14 PM

WHAT? The ball literally was never motionless before coach kicked it. It was rolling and bouncing around on the field and he kicked it while it was still bouncing, in fact I'm not sure it wasn't airborn when he did. That is absolutely 100% still a live ball until he kicks it.

The "kick" was referring to the coaches "kick", and there is no question that after that "kick" the ball became dead by rule for at least two reasons.