Author Topic: Consider this...  (Read 400 times)

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Online ElvisLives

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Consider this...
« on: November 08, 2023, 01:52:24 PM »
DEAD BALL UNS / UNR FOULS

1/10, 50, 10:00 (2), A=7, B=14.
After the snap, BC A11 is unable to find an open receiver and advances the ball to the B-45, where he clearly begins a slide (as defined). As A11 is still moving near the end of his 'slide,' the L is moving to the progress spot at the B-45, and beginning to signal dead-ball. At that moment, B99 dives, leading with his head, and strikes A11 in the head. The L and the U both have foul markers down for a dead-ball 9-1-4 targeting foul on B99. After a brief review between the L and U of the action observed, they report the foul to the R. Also at this time, Team A training staff are attending to A11, who was still laying on the ground following the contact by B99. The R coordinates with the U for the penalty enforcement, and moves to make the penalty announcement. As the R is making the announcement, the U is enforcing the penalty. As the R completes his announcement, the U has placed the ball at the B-30. The R then notifies B99 that he is disqualified, and, with no resistance, begins to escort B99 toward his sideline. As B99 begins to move toward his sideline, A77, A84, and A55 begin cursing at and taunting B99 for his action against their teammate. The R throws a foul marker against those team A players for abusive, threatening, and obscene language toward B99.
OK, so now what?
Do all of these dead-ball fouls offset?
Do the penalties for all of these dead-ball fouls cancel?
Are all of the penalties for these dead-ball fouls enforced in the order of their occurrence?

10-1-5 tells us that penalties for dead-ball fouls are enforced in the order of their occurrence, UNLESS UNR/UNS fouls by both teams are reported the R before any are COMPLETED. Remember that, by rule, COMPLETED means the penalty is "...accepted, declined, or canceled according to rule, or when the choice is obvious to the referee."
So, in this case, the (UNR) TGT penalty was not only officially 'completed' by rule, but had even been announced, and the penalty had been enforced, before the UNS fouls by Team A occurred. Therefore, the UNS foul (we would treat all of those fouls as a single UNS foul, but each player gets one on his counter) would be enforced at the succeeding spot established by the TGT penalty. The TGT penalty resulted in a new series for Team A. And, because the TGT foul created a new series, and because, by rule, the LTG is not established until the ball is ready for play for a new series, Team A will have 1/10, B-45.

Some folks believe that all dead-ball fouls would cancel, regardless of when they happen. That is not true. First, only UNR and UNS penalties can cancel. It does not apply to FST, DOF, etc. And some folks believe that the penalties for all dead-ball fouls that occur before the ball is next declared ready for play will cancel. That is not true, either.
Yes, if UNS/UNR fouls happen before they are all reported to the R, and he is able to rule that all of the penalties cancel, then the next down number is unaffected. But, a FST penalty would not cancel an opponent's UNS/UNR penalty. The good news for Team A is that the Team B UNS/UNR penalty would include a new series (first down) for them.



« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 02:10:23 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Consider this...
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2023, 02:02:35 PM »
I agree with the part about not canceling these fouls. As you say, the penalty for B’s foul had already been completed. I do not agree with A having 1/25. The line to gain is not established until the ball is ready for play. A’s foul occurred prior to the ball being declared ready, so it will still be 1/10. This is no different than a player gaining a first down through play and then getting a dead ball UNS after the down.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Consider this...
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2023, 02:06:12 PM »
I agree with the part about not canceling these fouls. As you say, the penalty for B’s foul had already been completed. I do not agree with A having 1/25. The line to gain is not established until the ball is ready for play. A’s foul occurred prior to the ball being declared ready, so it will still be 1/10. This is no different than a player gaining a first down through play and then getting a dead ball UNS after the down.


You are absolutely right, and I am going to edit my post.