A brain-teaser for y'all

[Osric Pureheart]

Last Sunday I worked a game here in Britain, where we had a highly unusual situation.  Here's two down-and-distances that we had one immediately after the other.  See if you can work out how we got from one to the other.

1. 2nd and 27 on Team A's 26.

2. 1st and 10 on Team A's 20.

The same team snapped the ball on both downs.  There was no change of possession during 2nd and 27.  NCAA 2011 rules.  And there should be video at some point, in case anyone (not unreasonably) might think that I've just invented this out of whole cloth.

(We may not actually have been correct by rule, but I looked the relevant rules up and they went to some seriously brain-bending places, so I'm not too worried if it turns out we were wrong.)

[jg-me]

Well, could have had a bad snap/fumble/muffed backward pass, B bats grounded ball through A's EZ, A takes TB rather than 2/17 @ A-36.
Or, DPI at the A-35 followed by DB PF or USC by Team A.
I'm sure there are other ways but don't want to get too convoluted. Definitely interested to hear what really took place.

[Kalle]

Let's work this backwards. Team A got a first down, so they must have been awarded it by rule.

1. Team A could have gained the first down through play. In this case you would have a run (or pass) to B-35, followed by three team A dead ball fouls (before RFP) to end back at A-20.

2. Team B could commit a foul with a first down component. One option is the DPI jg-me described, others are personal fouls, so you could have a situation where the play ends at A-35 with a live-ball team B PF followed by two team A DB fouls (again before RFP). Or team A throws an illegal forward pass from A-5 or A-10, followed by a DB team B PF.

3. Or, you could have team A legally kick the ball on second down, ball crossing the neutral zone, touched by team B and recovered by team A at A-20.

4. There could be a touchback in team A's end zone. jg-me has this covered.

Can't think of any other way for team A to get the first down. Waiting to hear what really happened

[Osric Pureheart]

Password BAFANL13 , 59 minutes 40 seconds.  Just realised I pointed at the wrong team during the announcement, but literally nobody noticed (the HC yelled "ah, it wasn't deliberate!" right as I announced it.)

Now, as to my thought process: I was having real trouble coming up with an enforcement spot here because of that irritating little phrase "the end of the related run"; to which my response was "what related run?" (and now I find out that the related run can apparently end even if it never existed in the first place, which sounds like something out of a fortune cookie), so I was offering 10 yards from the spot of the foul instead of the previous spot (they'd probably have chosen the same thing, but still).

(By the way, if anyone wants to clip that for a training tape, it'd be nice if you could acknowledge London Blitz and BAFRA.)

[mardunn]

So from the video, looks like muffed snap, scramble backwards and then an illegal kick @A5 by Team B that sends the ball out A's end line.

Pretty sure you got it right...Team B provided the impetus, so one of A's options is to decline the penalty and accept the result fo the play: 1st and 10 @ their 20.  I think your second rethought option is right too since the "run ended" at the previous spot, or rather, the spot where the snap happened (2-25-8e).

Glad I got to see the video...heck of an interesting play.

[TxSkyBolt]

BAFANL 13 doesn't work for me.

[mardunn]

Try BAFANL13 (without a space).

[Kalle]

Interesting that team B kicked the ball, usually it's the team A player who fouls in these situations.

As to runs, remember that if a prone team A player catches a forward pass, that too qualifies as a run, so it's not strange that the snap is a run.

[bama_stripes]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is enforcement not from the previous spot?  Foul by B during a loose ball play.....

[Kalle]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is enforcement not from the previous spot?  Foul by B during a loose ball play.....

You aren't missing anything (at least for NCAA). The basic spot is the end of the related run which is the spot of the snap. Foul by team B behind the basic spot -> enforce from the basic spot. Just like Osric said, too bad he gave the wrong option to team A in the game, but we all make mistakes and team A might well have chosen the touchback even with the correct option.

[TxSkyBolt]

Kalle,

I think this one will always be enforced from the spot of the related run...3 and 1 principle is only for team in possession of the ball. I think the coach would rather have a new series of downs than 2nd and 17.

Best regards,

Brad

[Kalle]

I think this one will always be enforced from the spot of the related run...3 and 1 principle is only for team in possession of the ball. I think the coach would rather have a new series of downs than 2nd and 17.

Which team was in possession of the ball at the time of the foul?

[TxSkyBolt]

Which team was in possession of the ball at the time of the foul?

Team A was in possession when the foul occurred.

b. A team has team possession:
1. When one of its players is in possession, including when he is attempting
a punt, drop kick or place kick;
2. While a forward pass thrown by one of its players is in flight; or
3. During a loose ball if one of its players was last in possession.

Best regards,

Brad

[Kalle]

Team A was in possession when the foul occurred.

If team A was in possession at the time of the foul, why would you not enforce a foul by the opposing team from the end of the related run? See (current book) rules 2-25-8-e, 10-2-1-a, 10-2-2-c-3, and 10-2-2-d-1-a/b.

[TxSkyBolt]

The end of the related run is the spot of the snap. I misread that you were saying to enforce at the spot of the foul since it was behind the basic spot? I was simply saying that the 3 and 1 is not in play when the fouling team is not the team in possession. So only enforcement spot is previous spot in this case.

[Kalle]

I was simply saying that the 3 and 1 is not in play when the fouling team is not the team in possession.

Huh? What are the cases in "3 and 1"? As I understand it, they are:

- Team not in possession fouls beyond the basic spot (enforce from the basic spot)
- Team not in possession fouls behind the basic spot (enforce from the basic spot)
- Team in possession fouls beyond the basic spot (enforce from the basic spot)
- Team in possession fouls behind the basic spot (enforce from the spot of the foul)

That's why it is called "3 and 1", in three cases you enforce from the basic spot and in one you do not.

Now, if you mean "3 and 1 says that fouls by the opponents of the team in possession are always enforced from the end of the related run", then we are in full agreement. I'm just opposed to sloppy language in officiating