Author Topic: First Touching  (Read 3964 times)

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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2023, 07:18:46 AM »
I still do not understand how you fouling helps you keep the football.  I read somewhere and cannot find it but it said "no foul committed by that team shall give that team an advantage". When they do change it next year I believe this is exactly what it will do.

First Touching is a violation, not a foul.

Offline mhez141

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2023, 09:41:42 AM »
Agree but after FT and you foul gives the ball back to you would be an advantage as if you had not fouled you would not have the football.

Offline mhez141

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2023, 04:01:24 PM »
I had typed another scenario with might happen with the new rule change where non player and UNS fouls were exempt from R losing the spot of FT but need to do some more thinking on it. And dont know how to just delete the whole post!
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 11:03:09 PM by mhez141 »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2023, 07:16:24 AM »

Furthermore, "Live ball enforced as dead ball" is not a defined phrase/category of foul in the rule book. It's short hand/mnemonic for our purposes for live ball fouls that come with succeeding spot enforcement. They are not, by definition, dead ball fouls and should not be conflated.

Let’s chew on this a little more. I was reading the fundamentals a moment ago, and was reminded that the period will be extended for a live ball foul accepted during the last play, except for…and it includes a non player foul, along with all the other dead balls. So does that have any impact on this situation?

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2023, 07:53:38 AM »
As I agree with what has been discussed but I still need more fire power to convince these guys. 
Mr Ralph Damren would you please give your ruling on this scenario? Since you are on the NFHS rules committee your input has major weight?
If anyone know this gentleman please contact him.
Thanks
While I respect George Demetriou's and many of your opinions, I feel that this falls under 2-16-2f where it had no baring on the play. IMHO, the play would stand which would allow R to take the spot of FT. The USC or non-player foul would have no baring on the outcome of the play and would be treated as such with succeeding spot enforcement. If time had expired during the play, the enforcement would be applied to first play of the succeeding period.

IF WE ALL AGREED ON EVERYTHING, IT WOULD BE MORE LIKE A TEA PARTY AND LESS LIKE A FOOTBALL RULES FORUM  :sTiR: tR:oLl aBdUcT

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2023, 09:05:04 AM »
While I respect George Demetriou's and many of your opinions, I feel that this falls under 2-16-2f where it had no baring on the play. IMHO, the play would stand which would allow R to take the spot of FT. The USC or non-player foul would have no baring on the outcome of the play and would be treated as such with succeeding spot enforcement. If time had expired during the play, the enforcement would be applied to first play of the succeeding period.

IF WE ALL AGREED ON EVERYTHING, IT WOULD BE MORE LIKE A TEA PARTY AND LESS LIKE A FOOTBALL RULES FORUM  :sTiR: tR:oLl aBdUcT

I tend to agree. I've been chewing on it a while now, and am changing my mind. If this happens to me on Friday night, I'm giving R the ball at spot of first touching, administering the sideline foul, and playing the next down. If that down is in the next period, so be it.

BTW, I gave you a [cheer].  FlAg1

Offline mhez141

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2023, 10:17:39 AM »
Not disagreeing with either of you in the previous two posts.  My only question is if you ruled on this play like you stated and it went to court (with the present rule book), would you have enough to convince a judge to rule in your favor. 
in 2-16-2f - what constituents "does not influence play"?  It's not the 22 players on the field.  So an official running into a coach and missing a major foul did not have an influence on the play?
6-2-5 says "any" and Football Fundamentals IV. 7. First touching of a kick by K is "always" ignored if the penalty is accepted for a foul during the kick.
Not a lawyer but with the present rule book without some clarification that will be forthcoming in this instance the present rule book would not support that penalty administration.  JMO and people can boo me doesn't really change my life or do I lose sleep over them.   FlAg1 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2023, 10:33:07 AM »
K punts and they commit first touching of the ball down field, then R scoops up the ball runs a few yards then fumbles and K recovers.  During the kick an official flags R's coach for being outside of the team box (9-8-3). It doesn't seem correct that R would lose the right of first touching with this type of foul. Am I missing something?

This is the case play we are working off of. Because this foul (being outside the team box) is considered a dead ball foul for enforcement purposes, It's not considered as occurring "during the down." Therefore, the spot of first touching is still in play. If R chooses the spot of first touching, that spot becomes the succeeding spot. Then, the penalty distance (if any) is enforced.

This is in keeping with the philosophy of keeping nonplayer fouls in the category of dead-ball, succeeding spot. That's what sold it for me.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2023, 12:37:59 PM »
Let’s chew on this a little more. I was reading the fundamentals a moment ago, and was reminded that the period will be extended for a live ball foul accepted during the last play, except for…and it includes a non player foul, along with all the other dead balls. So does that have any impact on this situation?

Short answer, no.

Fundamentally, I agree that a nonplayer foul probably shouldn't impact the ability for R to take the ball at a spot of first touching. However, that's not what the rule currently states since it specifies "any foul". There is no "except for..." in 6-1-7 or 6-2-5 like there is a 3-3-3a to extend the period.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2023, 01:37:27 PM »
Short answer, no.

Fundamentally, I agree that a nonplayer foul probably shouldn't impact the ability for R to take the ball at a spot of first touching. However, that's not what the rule currently states since it specifies "any foul". There is no "except for..." in 6-1-7 or 6-2-5 like there is a 3-3-3a to extend the period.

Ok, so answer me this. Instead of R committing a simple restricted area violation, let's say K's coach is on the field cussing an official. Clearly a UNS. Would R lose the right of first touching in that situation? If so, then as the other poster suggested, K would benefit from their own foul by getting to keep the ball.

Offline bossman72

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2023, 02:20:12 PM »
Fundamentally, I agree that a nonplayer foul probably shouldn't impact the ability for R to take the ball at a spot of first touching. However, that's not what the rule currently states since it specifies "any foul". There is no "except for..." in 6-1-7 or 6-2-5 like there is a 3-3-3a to extend the period.

But we shouldn't be treating it like a live ball for purposes of first touching but not in any other scenario.  That doesn't make sense.  We don't offset other live ball fouls with UNS, so why would we cancel first touching?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2023, 02:49:45 PM »
Ok, so answer me this. Instead of R committing a simple restricted area violation, let's say K's coach is on the field cussing an official. Clearly a UNS. Would R lose the right of first touching in that situation? If so, then as the other poster suggested, K would benefit from their own foul by getting to keep the ball.

R can decline the penalty to keep the ball. K's coach can still be disqualified.

But we shouldn't be treating it like a live ball for purposes of first touching but not in any other scenario.  That doesn't make sense.  We don't offset other live ball fouls with UNS, so why would we cancel first touching?

I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to justify this as the way it *should* be -- just it's the way it currently is. Maybe we should change it to prevent this from happening.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2023, 03:31:14 PM »
R can decline the penalty to keep the ball. K's coach can still be disqualified.

*But, provided it's not at the ejectable level, (he doesn't cuss the official, just comes onto the field to argue), now we have a situation in which a UNS can't be enforced because R wants to keep the ball. Plus, that goes against the "leave no foul unpunished" philosophy, especially unsportsmanlike fouls, which should always be enforced.


Offline dammitbobby

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2023, 03:35:09 PM »
But we shouldn't be treating it like a live ball for purposes of first touching but not in any other scenario.  That doesn't make sense.  We don't offset other live ball fouls with UNS, so why would we cancel first touching?

ah nevermind.  My point was invalid.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2023, 07:12:04 PM »
*But, provided it's not at the ejectable level, (he doesn't cuss the official, just comes onto the field to argue), now we have a situation in which a UNS can't be enforced because R wants to keep the ball. Plus, that goes against the "leave no foul unpunished" philosophy, especially unsportsmanlike fouls, which should always be enforced.

Again, not saying it's right. Just saying what it is.

I will not object if you want to amend 6-1-7 and 6-2-5 to say "except for nonplayer or unsportsmanlike fouls", but until that happens the rule reads "any foul".

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2023, 01:25:54 PM »
Again, not saying it's right. Just saying what it is.

I will not object if you want to amend 6-1-7 and 6-2-5 to say "except for nonplayer or unsportsmanlike fouls", but until that happens the rule reads "any foul".

I wish I could amend it. That's surely what it needs. But just to clarify, it does say, "any foul DURING THE DOWN," which could loosely be interpreted as "a live ball foul treated as a live ball foul."

But technically, according to the actual language in the book, you are right.

Offline bossman72

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2023, 08:42:52 AM »
Again, not saying it's right. Just saying what it is.

I will not object if you want to amend 6-1-7 and 6-2-5 to say "except for nonplayer or unsportsmanlike fouls", but until that happens the rule reads "any foul".

Clearly an oversight and I would not interpret the rule this way.  Doesn't make sense they would exclude UNS from offsetting fouls but not first touching.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2023, 11:11:12 AM »
Clearly an oversight and I would not interpret the rule this way.  Doesn't make sense they would exclude UNS from offsetting fouls but not first touching.

A grammatical oversight leading to an unintended, confusing rule interpretation in my rule book?

I say! What a scandal!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2023, 11:21:34 AM »
A grammatical oversight leading to an unintended, confusing rule interpretation in my rule book?

I say! What a scandal!

Careful, you may get on the [boo] list. I think this has been in the book for years, hasn't it? I guess the debacle created this year must have brought increased scrutiny.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2023, 11:41:11 AM »
One final thought before I put all this to bed.

Until several years ago, a legal formation by the offense needed to have at least seven linemen (and therefore no more than four backs). The rule was written such that the number of linemen was specified -- they needed seven, at least. Since interior linemen are not eligible receivers by position, having seven on the line means that you had two ends + three backs that could receive a pass from the player who received the snap. Defenses could plan for and expected no more than five potential eligible receivers.

Now, when the offense puts themselves at a disadvantage by not having 11 players on the field, it was not uncommon that the "missing" player was (or should have been) a lineman. Only having six linemen because there's only 10 players on the field does not give the offense an advantage -- they don't get an extra receiver and they're missing a blocker. However, it was a foul on the offense. We'd march them back five yards because Bubba forgot he was in the game and let his QB get sacked because of a missed blocking assignment.

Philosophically, this doesn't make sense. Why would we continue to penalize the offense when they're playing at a disadvantage? The intent and philosophy of the formation rule was to prevent the offense from getting an extra eligible receiver (or six). Many officials recognized the absurdity of the situation, but we still flagged the illegal formation because that's how the rule was written. Only once the rule was changed to redefine the formation in terms of backs did our enforcement change. How many officials do you know that would have said "Well, I know the rule *says* seven on the line, but I'm going to let it slide because they only had 10 on the field"? We would have called them out for inventing their own rules and interpretations not in line with what the rule book says.

This is where I am with this whole topic -- I know it's absurd and doesn't make philosophical sense, but it's they way the rule is currently written and therefore the rule should be changed. Until it does, we have to throw the flag for "six on the line".

The difference in these two scenarios is that a nonplayer or UNS foul by R during a play with first touching by K where R would want to take the ball at the spot of first touching, rather than the result of the play, is exceedingly rare (at least in comparison to a six man line because A only has 10 on the field), so there's little momentum to address the issue -- or even awareness that there is an issue. Since it is so rare and unexpected, it's very tempting to go 1-1-6 on the play and do what you think feels right, but that's not in keeping with the rule book as it is currently written.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: First Touching
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2023, 12:51:34 PM »
One final thought before I put all this to bed.

Until several years ago, a legal formation by the offense needed to have at least seven linemen (and therefore no more than four backs). The rule was written such that the number of linemen was specified -- they needed seven, at least. Since interior linemen are not eligible receivers by position, having seven on the line means that you had two ends + three backs that could receive a pass from the player who received the snap. Defenses could plan for and expected no more than five potential eligible receivers.

Now, when the offense puts themselves at a disadvantage by not having 11 players on the field, it was not uncommon that the "missing" player was (or should have been) a lineman. Only having six linemen because there's only 10 players on the field does not give the offense an advantage -- they don't get an extra receiver and they're missing a blocker. However, it was a foul on the offense. We'd march them back five yards because Bubba forgot he was in the game and let his QB get sacked because of a missed blocking assignment.

Philosophically, this doesn't make sense. Why would we continue to penalize the offense when they're playing at a disadvantage? The intent and philosophy of the formation rule was to prevent the offense from getting an extra eligible receiver (or six). Many officials recognized the absurdity of the situation, but we still flagged the illegal formation because that's how the rule was written. Only once the rule was changed to redefine the formation in terms of backs did our enforcement change. How many officials do you know that would have said "Well, I know the rule *says* seven on the line, but I'm going to let it slide because they only had 10 on the field"? We would have called them out for inventing their own rules and interpretations not in line with what the rule book says.

This is where I am with this whole topic -- I know it's absurd and doesn't make philosophical sense, but it's they way the rule is currently written and therefore the rule should be changed. Until it does, we have to throw the flag for "six on the line".

The difference in these two scenarios is that a nonplayer or UNS foul by R during a play with first touching by K where R would want to take the ball at the spot of first touching, rather than the result of the play, is exceedingly rare (at least in comparison to a six man line because A only has 10 on the field), so there's little momentum to address the issue -- or even awareness that there is an issue. Since it is so rare and unexpected, it's very tempting to go 1-1-6 on the play and do what you think feels right, but that's not in keeping with the rule book as it is currently written.

I think everyone agrees with you on principle. The dilemma is what are you going to do Friday night? The rules as written won't work, so do you just not call the penalty? Or enforce the rule the wrong way?

Also, completely unrelated to the topic, but relevant to your post about eligible receivers, technically there is a potential for 6 eligible receivers on any given play. 4 in the backfield (including the player who receives the snap and two on the ends with eligible numbers. There is nothing preventing a lineman from throwing a pass, provided he possesses the ball in a legal manner first.
I agree before you post, that's probably not going to happen either, but it's possible.