Author Topic: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......  (Read 18033 times)

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Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2023, 07:46:09 PM »
So if bigboss man 72 is correct. So fouls by a player is previous spot. Exception fouls against the ball are spot fouls. Illegal kick, Illegal bat or pass, Illegal participation, Illegal touching are the exceptions to the new rule. ABO only applies for a running play beyond the LOS. COP, KICK RETURNS, INTERCEPTIONS ARE spots fouls.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2023, 06:49:17 AM »
Rule 10-6 has also been tweaked....ENFORCEMENT SPOTS, ALL-BUT -ONE PRINCIPLE : Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with exception of a foul(s) by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage. These fouls are enforced from the previous spot.

Fundamental X will have to be adjusted.

WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND:

(1) Fouls by B when run ends BEHIND the LOS = previous spot
(2) Fouls by A BEHIND the LOS = previous spot, excepting illegal bat,kick,pass & some IP (hat coming off, sub coming on)

IF YOU ARE AN ATTORNEY, YOU MAY ENJOY READING THE RULE CHANGE;

IF YOU ARE A FOOTBALL OFFICIAL, YOU PROBABLY WILL ENJOY ENFORCING THE RULE CHANGE.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2023, 06:57:48 AM »
That's not what I'm reading:

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

 
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

I think that’s correct for a foul by A.  This foul was by B.

Makes absolutely no sense for A not to get yardage gained legally.

Offline Snapper

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2023, 07:50:57 AM »
I still don't under stand the new rule change.

This post will be really long, but here’s my attempt to paraphrase and explain the new rule.  I hope it’s helpful for those that like long explanations.

As Ralph has said, the Editorial Committee may still change the actual wording of the new rule.  So until we see that, it’s hard to be definitive about every subtle part of the rule.  Everything that I write below could be wrong if the Editorial Committee writes things differently than what I understand about what the Rules Committee is trying to accomplish.

As BossMan basically said somewhere above, it appears that the college rule is actually written more clearly (at least so far).  The Federation and NCAA being two separate committees, there are lots of times that they want to get to basically the same place, but they come at it differently.  So subtle differences can creep in. 

But as I understand it, the Fed wants to change over to how the NCAA enforces offensive fouls behind the line.  AND ALSO for defensive fouls when a run ends behind the line.

There will be a little confusion this first year.  And there are some people that don’t like the rule change at all.  But the Committee voted unanimously for the changes.  So obviously there was wide spread support for this change.  (I personally like the change.)

The Fed and NCAA have some different terminology, but they have some similar concepts:

The Fed has “All But One”.  The NCAA is “Three-and-One”.  Same thing, different terms.  Unless there is a specific rule on how to enforce a penalty, you fall back onto “All But One”.  When you do fall back to that, then “All” fouls are enforced from the Basic Spot.  Except for the “One” situation where the offense fouls behind the Basic Spot.

To determine the Basic Spot, you have to know what “type” of play it was when the foul occurred.  Here again, the Fed and NCAA use different terminology, but they sort of end up in the same space.  In Fed, there are “loose-ball” plays and “running” plays.  Those help determine the Basic Spot.  But now, the new rule is going to change a “running” play that ends behind the line to be the Previous Spot.  (Again, the terminology and rules that the NCAA uses are, to me, clearer.  But we’ll wait and see how the Fed actually writes this in the book.)

But as I understand the new Fed rule, instead of the old way of them having the Basic Spot be the end of the related run when the run ended behind the line, the new rule will make the new Basic Spot the Previous spot.

OK, so let’s deal with that portion of the changes first.  The new Basic Spot being the Previous spot when the related run ends behind the line of scrimmage.  Using “All but One”, we know that 3 situations are going to use that new Basic Spot.  Fouls by A in advance of the Basic Spot.  And fouls by B both behind and in advance of the Basic Spot.

A 3/10 at the A-35.  B54 tackles A1 by the facemask 10 yds behind the line of scrimmage (A-25).  Under the old Fed rule, we would enforce 15 yds from the A-25 and end up A 3/5 A-40.  Under the new rule, the Basic Spot is now the Previous Spot and All-but-One tells us to enforce that defensive foul from the Basic Spot.  So under the new rule, we enforce from the A-35 and end up A 1/10 at the 50.

A 3/10 A-35.  B54 legally sacks A1 at the A-25.  But BJ called B23 for defensive holding at the A-49.  The run ended behind the line, so the new Basic Spot is the A-35.  Fouls by the defense are enforced from the Basic Spot.  So A 1/10 A-45.

A 2/10 A-35.  A1 sweeps right and is tackled for a loss at the A-30.  A24 committed an illegal block below the waist downfield at the A-37.  Again, the run ended behind the line, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  A’s foul occurred beyond the basic spot, so we are going to enforce from the basic spot.  B might choose the result of the play (A3/15 A-30) or they can have the penalty enforced (A 2/25 A-20).

So those are 3 examples of using All-but-One with the new Basic Spot.

Now, let’s deal with the second portion of the change.  What to do when A fouls behind the line.  In my opinion, right now the new rule is very convoluted talking about different basic spots for different fouls.  But we’ll see if maybe they clean that up a bit.  Here’s what they’re trying to accomplish.

If A commits certain fouls behind the line of scrimmage (Ralph has listed those), then we will enforce those from the spot of the foul.  Every other foul that A commits behind the line of scrimmage will be enforced from the Previous Spot.

(The NCAA actually does this the opposite way.  They define the fouls that you enforce from the previous spot and then everything else is from the spot.  The Fed defines the ones that you enforce from the spot and then everything else is from the previous spot.  In practice, if they were careful about how they listed things, it will end up being the same set of fouls.)

A 3/10 A-35.  A1 intentionally grounds the ball from the A-25.  We will still enforce that from the A-25 because grounding is listed as one of the fouls where we will still do that.

A 2/10 A-35.  A75 holds at the A-33.  A1 is sacked at the A-30.  B could take the result of the play (A 3/15 A-30).  Or they can accept the penalty.  Because holding is not listed as being a spot foul, we’ll enforce that from the previous spot (A 2/20 A-25).

A 2/10 A-35.  A throws a TD.  But A75 was holding at the A-33.  B will obviously accept the penalty.  A 2/20 A-25.


Well again, this was really long.  But basically I feel that there are 2 points to grasp with the new rule.  (And again, with the caveat that we haven’t seen the final language.)

First, that the Basic Spot for runs that end behind the line is now the Previous Spot.  That’s really important for Defensive fouls.  And is a “Big Change”.

Second, that Offensive fouls that occur behind the line will either be enforced from the spot of the foul or from the previous spot, depending on the what the foul is.  Another “Big Change”.

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2023, 08:56:33 AM »
I still don't under stand the new rule change. If A fouls behind the LOS is that a previuos spot enforcement. A 1st & 10 at 50 yard line A throw a pass that is completed or incompleted pass. There a hold at A 40 yard line. The penalty is enforce from the 50 yard line previous spot enforcement. Right. A 1st & 10 from the 50 yard line A called for holding at A 40 yard line the sack also at The 40 yard line. They have the option of decline the penalty so it would 2 & 20 from 40 yard line. Or accept the penalty so it would be 1 & 20 from 40 yard line. If A fouls behind  the LOS on a running play is that a previous spot or spot of the foul.

Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

--You still default to ABO for every foul.  If you have a flag down by the offense in the offensive backfield, then that's when you have to remember if we're marching from the previous spot or spot of foul depending on what it is.  Blocking foul = previous spot.  Foul against the ball = spot foul.  Fouls in the end zone = safety.

--When the run ends behind the LOS, the basic spot is the previous spot.  This is more for defensive fouls.

--Not a rule change, I think it should have been to help clear a few things up:  The only time you'll ever have a loose ball play is during a legal pass or kick play.  Everything else is a run.

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2023, 08:58:27 AM »
Here are the NEW portions of 10-4 :

10-4-2 The basic spot is the previous spot :
   
   d. For a foul by B when the run or the related run ends behind the line of scrimmage before a change of possession.
   e. For a foul by A that occurs behind the line of scrimmagr when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.

10-4-4 (NEW) The basic spot is the spot of the foul for:

   a. Illegal batting or kicking when the foul occurs behind the end of the run or related run.
   b. Illegal participation as in 9-6-4a and 9-6-4g.
   c.  An illegal forward pass as in 7-5-2c and 7-5-2d.
   d. For a foul that occurs beyond the line of scrimmagr durimng a running play as defined in 10-3-2 when the run or related run ends beyond the line of scrimmage.
   e. For a foul that occurs behind the run or related run following a change of possession.

This is the wordage that we voted on. The Editorial Committee may then tweak it.



Ralph,

It looks like they forgot to add illegal touching to 10-4-4.  Any chance that gets fixed?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2023, 09:26:25 AM »
Ralph,

It looks like they forgot to add illegal touching to 10-4-4.  Any chance that gets fixed?
Illegal touching of a legal forward pass is, by definition, a loose-ball play = previous spot enforcement.

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2023, 07:24:35 PM »
Illegal touching of a legal forward pass is, by definition, a loose-ball play = previous spot enforcement.

I'm thinking about if the QB is about to be sacked and A77 catches the pass 5 yards behind the LOS.  I think that should be a spot foul for Illegal Touching like it used to be.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2023, 08:34:45 PM »
Quote
A77 catches the pass 5 yards behind the LOS

I'm getting so confused with all this.  I hope they don't botch this but I'm having flashbacks to the HCT where it took them 3 years to get it totally fixed.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2023, 08:51:14 PM »
I think that’s correct for a foul by A.  This foul was by B.

Makes absolutely no sense for A not to get yardage gained legally.
You are missing the point entirely. Let me give an example:

A snaps the ball on their own 20 going out. A32 runs to the 30 and is tackled there. During the play, we have a personal foul on B22 at the 50. So, the run ended beyond the los, and the foul was beyond the line of scrimmage. Under last years rule, the basic spot would be the A30 (end of run.) ABO dictates fouls by B are enforced at basic spot, so the personal foul would be enforced from the end of the run.

With this new rule change, the basic spot is now the spot of the foul, so, because ABO states that fouls by B are enforced from the basic spot, instead of enforcing this penalty from the end of the run, we will enforce it from the spot of the foul, which is the 50! So, we give A 20 yards they did not gain legally, and then enforce another 15 yards.


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Offline VALJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2023, 10:38:26 PM »
I'm getting so confused with all this.  I hope they don't botch this but I'm having flashbacks to the HCT where it took them 3 years to get it totally fixed.

Despite the best efforts of good folks like our esteemed colleague Ralph, it seems when the rule change happens, the next year we correct the unanticipated problems in the verbiage, and maybe the year after that we tweak the corrections to what we actually want it to say.

Since I’ve been out for 3 years, in our association I have to begin in the training class, where I can then be reinstated to full membership once they’ve seen me in a scrimmage.  It might not be the worst year for me to do that so I’ll have plenty of time to work my way through this change.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2023, 06:18:53 AM »
Illegal touching of a legal forward pass is, by definition, a loose-ball play = previous spot enforcement.
Yes, but if the illegal toucher is behind the los when he or she touches it, it becomes a spot foul doesn’t it? Or at least it used to be.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2023, 07:26:23 AM »
You are missing the point entirely. Let me give an example:

A snaps the ball on their own 20 going out. A32 runs to the 30 and is tackled there. During the play, we have a personal foul on B22 at the 50. So, the run ended beyond the los, and the foul was beyond the line of scrimmage. Under last years rule, the basic spot would be the A30 (end of run.) ABO dictates fouls by B are enforced at basic spot, so the personal foul would be enforced from the end of the run.

With this new rule change, the basic spot is now the spot of the foul, so, because ABO states that fouls by B are enforced from the basic spot, instead of enforcing this penalty from the end of the run, we will enforce it from the spot of the foul, which is the 50! So, we give A 20 yards they did not gain legally, and then enforce another 15 yards.

I’m betting that’s not how the actual rule will read, although YankeeAl will argue that the foul by B prevented A from gaining those additional yards.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2023, 08:24:39 AM »
As Calhoun notes it would make no sense to be enforcing a B foul that occurred beyond the LOS and in advance of the end of the run from the spot of the foul.  So pretty confident that there will be some further wording tweaking and fine tuning before the final "official version" comes out.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2023, 09:04:24 AM »
Yes, but if the illegal toucher is behind the los when he or she touches it, it becomes a spot foul doesn’t it? Or at least it used to be.


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It was before 2006, then it was enforced as illegal forward pass - trerated as a running play - and enforced from where the passer threw the ball. 7-5-13 then addressed the act of illegally touching the ball by an ineligible player carries the same penalty whether the act occurs behind, in or beyond the line of scrimmage. While flagging the passer for IFP was a spot foul, flagging the 'toucher' of a legal forward pass is a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement.

While 10-4-4d has me as befuddled as a crab in a lobster trap (ole' Mainer saying),too, all I can say is let's wait until the final print shows. In the meantime, I'll contact the powers to be for clearity.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2023, 09:50:36 AM »
I’m betting that’s not how the actual rule will read, although YankeeAl will argue that the foul by B prevented A from gaining those additional yards.

Like everyone else, I'm waiting (yearning) for the actual written language clarifying this revision.  My understanding of "Basic Spot" is that the runner is entitled to everything he LEGALLY gained, plus any penalty yardage charged to his OPPONENT during the play.  All fouls but ONE, are enforced from the succeeding spot.

The "One exception" has been, when "A" fouls BEHIND the run, any additional yardage gained BEYOND the foul, is NOT considered "legal" (so the legality of the advance, stopped at the spot of the foul.  When A fouls in advance of where the legal play ended, they are entitled to ALL of that advance, but must then pay the penalty for the foul from the end of the run.

NFHS: 10-2: "The Basic Spot is the Previous Spot: (a) For a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap".

NFHS: 10-6: Details the (previous) "All But One" Principle, which may have taken a little EXTRA time to fully comprehend, but once learned left a BURNING A HOLE IN MOST MEMORIES and this revision may well require some SERIOUS additional study and review, to EXTINGUISH/REPLACE that original hole.[/b]

Offline bossman72

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2023, 10:54:16 AM »
It was before 2006, then it was enforced as illegal forward pass - trerated as a running play - and enforced from where the passer threw the ball. 7-5-13 then addressed the act of illegally touching the ball by an ineligible player carries the same penalty whether the act occurs behind, in or beyond the line of scrimmage. While flagging the passer for IFP was a spot foul, flagging the 'toucher' of a legal forward pass is a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement.

While 10-4-4d has me as befuddled as a crab in a lobster trap (ole' Mainer saying),too, all I can say is let's wait until the final print shows. In the meantime, I'll contact the powers to be for clearity.

Since I started in 09, Illegal Touching has always been enforced with all but one.  So even though it's a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot, the spot of the foul is behind the basic spot, so we would enforce from the spot of the foul.

Looks like the forgot to add it to the spot foul exceptions.  I think it should be added.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2023, 05:28:06 PM »
It was before 2006, then it was enforced as illegal forward pass - trerated as a running play - and enforced from where the passer threw the ball. 7-5-13 then addressed the act of illegally touching the ball by an ineligible player carries the same penalty whether the act occurs behind, in or beyond the line of scrimmage. While flagging the passer for IFP was a spot foul, flagging the 'toucher' of a legal forward pass is a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement.

While 10-4-4d has me as befuddled as a crab in a lobster trap (ole' Mainer saying),too, all I can say is let's wait until the final print shows. In the meantime, I'll contact the powers to be for clearity.
Yes, I agree. It’s been a long winter and I’ve been cooped up with nothing to do. The rule changes have been a breath of sunshine. Now I have something to think about.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2023, 05:28:56 PM »
I’m betting that’s not how the actual rule will read, although YankeeAl will argue that the foul by B prevented A from gaining those additional yards.
Yes, I agree.


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Offline HLinNC

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2023, 06:14:03 AM »
Quote
Illegal Touching has always been enforced with all but one

Agreed, but I've also been a party to screwing it up from the previous spot also. :-[

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2023, 09:36:45 AM »
I’m betting that’s not how the actual rule will read, although YankeeAl will argue that the foul by B prevented A from gaining those additional yards.

Where's the Advantage/Disadvantage, Risk/Reward balance in that?

It's the Offense that selected the play, and their failure responsible for that EXTRA lost yardage, that the Defense fairly EARNED.  The message seems clear; when the blocking fails, raising the risk of losing  ADDITIONAL SERIOUS yardage, might as well foul to limit the damage.  Seems like AUTOMATIC "Plea Bargaining".
« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 09:43:10 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2023, 09:57:16 AM »
As predicted, here are the changes.....

(6) Fouls by A behind LOS have previous spot enforcement (excepting illegal kick, bat ,pass & some IP). Fouls by B  carry previous spot enforcement if run end behind LOS.

It seems to me this could be accomplished by simply adding language to the ABO. Something like, “All fouls are enforced from the basic spot, except for these three: a foul by A behind the basic spot, a foul by A behind the los, a foul by B behind the LOS when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage. These fouls are enforced from the previous spot.

Then, deal with the exceptions listed.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2023, 10:21:12 AM »
Back in 2003, a very high % of us supported the addition of 2-16-2g (PSK) . This year , all of the Rules Committee and a high % of you supported the change. Like PSK , the verbage became very complex. It took us 3 years to get the wrinkles out of PSK. It may take a while to iron the wrinkles out of 10-4. Once we get the print version along with a lobster crate (ole' Mainer saying) of cases ,we can start that process..

What we now know is that an O-hold 10 yards behind the LOS on 1st &10 will only turn into 1st & 20, not 1st & 30. We also know that a QB sacked behind the LOS by FM will have the same enforcement if he fumbles or holds onto the ball. That's the important stuff, the english professors can handle the rest :).

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2023, 11:25:41 AM »
It seems to me this could be accomplished by simply adding language to the ABO. Something like, “All fouls are enforced from the basic spot, except for these three: a foul by A behind the basic spot, a foul by A behind the los, a foul by B behind the LOS when the run or related run ends behind the line of scrimmage. These fouls are enforced from the previous spot.

Then, deal with the exceptions listed.


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I haven't yet seen the "official" explanations, but your suggestion seems straightforward, understandable & (most importantly) memorable.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2023, 11:45:55 AM »
Back in 2003, a very high % of us supported the addition of 2-16-2g (PSK) . This year , all of the Rules Committee and a high % of you supported the change. Like PSK , the verbage became very complex. It took us 3 years to get the wrinkles out of PSK. It may take a while to iron the wrinkles out of 10-4. Once we get the print version along with a lobster crate (ole' Mainer saying) of cases ,we can start that process..

What we now know is that an O-hold 10 yards behind the LOS on 1st &10 will only turn into 1st & 20, not 1st & 30. We also know that a QB sacked behind the LOS by FM will have the same enforcement if he fumbles or holds onto the ball. That's the important stuff, the english professors can handle the rest :).

Yes, this "adjustment" will reduce the number of 1st & 30, 1st & 30+ mark-offs, but it will be interesting to see how long (& deep) passers may roam, waiting for receivers to get open, wearing out D-rushers knowing there's NO ADDITIONAL CONSEQUENCE to indefinitely extending their journey.