4th Down, Short of LTG, then Late Hit....

[FredFan7]

Ruling please.

4th and 10 for A at the 50.  A33 runs to the B41 where he is tackled short of the line to gain.  The whistle sounds.  Then B55 hits A33 late drawing a dead ball personal foul. 

Whose ball and where?  I think I know the answer but want to make sure......

[Grant - AR]

Ruling please.

4th and 10 for A at the 50.  A33 runs to the B41 where he is tackled short of the line to gain.  The whistle sounds.  Then B55 hits A33 late drawing a dead ball personal foul. 

Whose ball and where?  I think I know the answer but want to make sure......

If I remember my Fed rules, the line to gain wasn't reached so it will be B's ball.  The 15-yard penalty will be marked from the end of the run and it will be 1st and 10 for B at the B26 (which will now be the A26).

[FredFan7]

Yes, that's what I have too.  Unfortunate that B55's stupid penalty won't allow A to retain the ball.  Not "continuing action" status in Fed. 

[biltheref]

Rule 5-1-2b.  Casebook 5.1.2 Situation E.  New Series of Downs. 

[LarryW60]

As soon as the LTG wasn't reached after a 4th down, it became B's ball.  So the personal foul happened while B (now A) was in possession.  Move them back 15 yards and give them 1st and 10.

[HLinNC]

Once watched a youth coach get flagged and then tossed over this scenario.  Fortunately I was up in the press box running the clock.
 
 

[GoGoGo]

Now why in the world would you ever toss a youth coach.      

[Rulesman]

Now why in the world would you ever toss a youth coach.      

They are more suspect to get the heave-ho than coaches at any other level.

[GoGoGo]

I agree with you rulesman.

[bama_stripes]

Now why in the world would you ever toss a youth coach.      

Because they get their rules "knowledge" from watching TV games whose rules probably don't apply at their level, then want to argue ad nauseum with trained officials who do know the rules.  Then they continue to argue and to berate said officials for the rest of the game.

[Atlanta Blue]

Now why in the world would you ever toss a youth coach.      

Just for kicks!

[fbrefga]

Youth coach is an oxymoron!  More like youth "wannabe coach". 

Not all "youth coaches" are bad.  Some just need a few extra learning experiences. 

[James]

Just for kicks!

No they ran on forth down. They didn't kick.

[Magician]

Youth coach is an oxymoron!  More like youth "wannabe coach". 

Not all "youth coaches" are bad.  Some just need a few extra learning experiences. 

My son has played youth football the past couple years and as bad as the coaches are with rules, some of the officials I've seen are worse.  In addition to coaches learning rules from TV, they are also dealing with some pretty bad officials.  Not all youth officials are licensed or trained.

[fbrefga]

My son has played youth football the past couple years and as bad as the coaches are with rules, some of the officials I've seen are worse.  In addition to coaches learning rules from TV, they are also dealing with some pretty bad officials.  Not all youth officials are licensed or trained.

For the most part, I agree that there are some officials in the youth leagues that need further training and development.  However, the youth leagues are usually the training grounds for newer officials.  That is no excuse for not learning the rules. 

Your point that not all youth officials are registered with an association is a concern.  I also have a son playing youth football.  This past season was the first where the officials fell under knew leadership and it was a requirement that they be registered with an association.  The officiating improved considerably compared to the last several seasons.  Now, being registered does not automatically mean they are competent; but they will receive some training and guidance. 

[AlUpstateNY]

My son has played youth football the past couple years and as bad as the coaches are with rules, some of the officials I've seen are worse.  In addition to coaches learning rules from TV, they are also dealing with some pretty bad officials.  Not all youth officials are licensed or trained.

Whether the officials who work your son's games are certified and trained is dependent on the source from which they are assigned. The decision about who will be selected to provide officials for their games is made ENTIRELY by the league, or organization sponsoring the games. 

If you would prefer certified and trained officials to work your son's games, YOU need to convince your league management to secure officials from a source that can provide them.

[LarryW60]

The rec league we support has their own official's group.  We provide additional 3 and 4-man crews to help handle their weekly load.  The rec league's officials can be kids themselves while our assciation requires applicant to be at least 18-years-old.  Rec league is treated as the training ground for all of us and we try an give our trainees as much time on the rec field as possible.  It will help them in the long-run in dealing with the "wierd but true" that can happen on the field.  It has been my experience that the truly bizarre things are usually perpetrated by rec league coaches.  Once you've run into it there, you won't be surprised if you run into it at the higher levels.

[Magician]

I don't disagree at all with the comments about getting more competent officials.  In our area, the officials associations have no assigning responsiblities.  They can serve as networking opportunities for officials looking for other officials to work games but that's it.  A local youth league could contact us looking for officials but our only ability to help them would be to make an announcement that Bill at Youth Football is looking for officials.  Please contact him.

The league my son plays in is a multi-county CYO league.  They prefer licensed officials but don't require it.  Some are better than others and some have been doing CYO games for years but never been licensed.  There are some very good licensed officials that work games.  I know that but the coaches and parents have no way to distinguish one from another.  They have no idea CYO is hiring non-licensed officials.  They are all just guys in stripes.

[bama_stripes]

The league my son plays in is a multi-county CYO league.  They prefer licensed officials but don't require it.

And therein lies your problem.

Your league's Board of Directors should form their own association with an experienced official to head it up.  They can then set their own requirements for the officials who work your games, and have someone who will be responsible to the BOD when there are problems.

[Gray Hare]

Related to the original post...........even if the personal foul on B occurred during live ball play, doesn't that fall under the catagory of a live ball foul being enforced like a dead ball foul? Therefore the result would be the same?  GH

[jg-me]

A PF would never be treated as a dead ball foul unless it did, in fact, occur while the ball was dead.

[HLinNC]

GH, I think you are thinking of unsportsmanlike, not personal fouls.  A PF can be live (facemask)  or dead (late hit OOB).  We treat USC like a dead ball foul for enforcement.

[110]

The rec league we support has their own official's group.  We provide additional 3 an It will help them in the long-run in dealing with the "wierd but true" that can happen on the field. 

Holy, is that ever true. The most mindbogglingly odd things happen with the little guys. I owe a better understanding of Inadvertent Whistle applications entirely due to working with teenage officials that were for the most part standing around just earning their pay ...

Classic memory from my second or third year ... A 2nd down, 7 to go, from their 10-yard line. Defense offside on the snap. Roll out with Q, offensive hold. Q shovel-passes to an RB, who is lugging the ball to the LOS when side-guy blows the whistle inadvertently.

Lemme tell you, I was right glad I'd studied the book on that one.

[Atlanta Blue]

Classic memory from my second or third year ... A 2nd down, 7 to go, from their 10-yard line. Defense offside on the snap. Roll out with Q, offensive hold. Q shovel-passes to an RB, who is lugging the ball to the LOS when side-guy blows the whistle inadvertently.

Lemme tell you, I was right glad I'd studied the book on that one.

I'm assuming you aren't using FED rules.  If you were, the study is a short course: that ball was dead as soon as the defense entered the NZ.

[110]

I'm assuming you aren't using FED rules.  If you were, the study is a short course: that ball was dead as soon as the defense entered the NZ.

Nah, this was Canadian amateur.