Author Topic: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?  (Read 1676 times)

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Offline Fatso

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I don't know if it's the wording of the rules or the sheer volume of possible scenarios, but trying to learn enforcement rules is overwhelming.  How did you go about learning everything?  Do you have a step by step system/process that you run through each time? (like asking yourself 1. loose ball play/ or run, 2. penalty beyond or behind basic spot, 3. change of possession?, etc....  ) 

Just trying to figure out a way to get organized when dissecting scenarios and coming up with the proper enforcement.


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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2023, 10:18:41 AM »
Try 1) Reddings Guide.  2) Rules By Topic (Referee mag)  3) NFHS Rules Simplified & Illustrated

The first two break down rules in a topical format or by segments of the game- running game, passing game, kicking game, etc.  Reddings Guide has been the overall biggest help to me in my career.  Rule 2 has to be the first thing to go over as the terminology is important. Then Fundamentals, then Rule 10 is where you start breaking down loose ball play, running play, and kicks. 

We don't get the S&I rulebook with our packet anymore but it was handy when I started 30 years ago.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2023, 11:35:54 AM »
Try 1) Reddings Guide.  2) Rules By Topic (Referee mag)  3) NFHS Rules Simplified & Illustrated

The first two break down rules in a topical format or by segments of the game- running game, passing game, kicking game, etc.  Reddings Guide has been the overall biggest help to me in my career.  Rule 2 has to be the first thing to go over as the terminology is important. Then Fundamentals, then Rule 10 is where you start breaking down loose ball play, running play, and kicks. 

We don't get the S&I rulebook with our packet anymore but it was handy when I started 30 years ago.
  Great info, thank you.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2023, 09:37:46 AM »
HL's suggestions are spot on. I'd start there for specifics. In general, however, I have a overarching philosophy to learn such things that (at least for me) is a good mental place to start from:

Every scenario is not unique. You do not need to memorize a million different plays or situations. Think about categories or a hierarchy and group plays together. For an extreme example, you wouldn't try to differentiate a running play if the runner went left vs. right vs. up the middle -- it's just "running play".

I'd start by outlining "Running play vs loose ball" then "Is the foul on A?" vs "Is the foul on B?" and you'll quickly realize you've covered 95% of all penalties. The confusing part is that we, on this forum, like to come up with wacky one-off plays that involve seven changes of possession after the coach makes an illegal kick and a dog intercepts a pass in the endzone... and that's not where you should start. Save the edge cases for last until you're very confident on the basics.

I don't have the time right at the moment to draw up an entire scheme for you where you get changes of possession and such, but I could do it later if you wanted -- but I'd also suggest you do it yourself first, because that's better practice on your part.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2023, 11:36:15 AM »
HL's suggestions are spot on. I'd start there for specifics. In general, however, I have a overarching philosophy to learn such things that (at least for me) is a good mental place to start from:

Every scenario is not unique. You do not need to memorize a million different plays or situations. Think about categories or a hierarchy and group plays together. For an extreme example, you wouldn't try to differentiate a running play if the runner went left vs. right vs. up the middle -- it's just "running play".

I'd start by outlining "Running play vs loose ball" then "Is the foul on A?" vs "Is the foul on B?" and you'll quickly realize you've covered 95% of all penalties. The confusing part is that we, on this forum, like to come up with wacky one-off plays that involve seven changes of possession after the coach makes an illegal kick and a dog intercepts a pass in the endzone... and that's not where you should start. Save the edge cases for last until you're very confident on the basics.

I don't have the time right at the moment to draw up an entire scheme for you where you get changes of possession and such, but I could do it later if you wanted -- but I'd also suggest you do it yourself first, because that's better practice on your part.
  I appreciate this, and please don't spend any time creating a schematic.  I have the basics I believe for the most part.  The multiple layer scenarios with change of penalties before and after change of possession etc are what becomes overwhelming. 
I'm also looking for an easy way to remember/understand UNS or Nonplayer fouls and how they're assessed, what and when do they offset double fouls, etc... 

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2023, 06:22:35 PM »
With change of possession and a single foul, you have three scenarios:

A fouls before COP -- B must decline to keep ball
B fouls before COP -- A's ball, enforce from previous spot (bean bag, end of run if fumble).
Either team fouls after COP -- pretend B was A the whole time, it's a running play, ABO applies.

If the COP was a scrimmage kick, then PSK may apply -- the goal of PSK is to transform a pre-COP B/R foul into a post-COP B/R foul where the "spot of the foul" (for enforcement purposes) is the end of the kick. Similarly, the 10-4-2 exception transforms a pre-COP A foul into a post-COP A foul during a scrimmage kick (although not mandatory, B/R can request a rekick). All of this is done to prevent "replay the down" when the down is a scrimmage kick.

If you have fouls by both teams, that's where things can get complicated, but things tend towards "double foul, reply down" if it can't be made simple. However, there's two basic scenarios here:

B fouls before COP -- double foul, replay the down.
B fouls after COP -- B must decline A's foul to keep ball, enforce B's penalty ABO (as above)

When you get more complicated things like multiple COPs, think clean hands (team in last possession cannot foul before getting the ball the last time) and team in last possession must decline other teams fouls -- if things get overly complicated, you probably don't have clean hands and it's "double foul, replay down".

UNS and Nonplayer are dead ball enforcement. This means you sort out all the live ball stuff unrelated to this, then start assessing the dead ball enforcement. There are some quirks (like equal numbers of UNSs cancel out and enforce the rest to prevent the 15 one way and half the distance the other), but nothing absurd.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2023, 09:17:10 PM »
Focus on understanding three things:

1. The definition of a running play
2. The definition of a loose ball play
3. The basic spot for each

Once you have that down, you can start to think about more complicated things like change of possession plays and PSK and such.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2023, 09:34:16 AM »
I don't know if it's the wording of the rules or the sheer volume of possible scenarios, but trying to learn enforcement rules is overwhelming.  How did you go about learning everything?  Do you have a step by step system/process that you run through each time? (like asking yourself 1. loose ball play/ or run, 2. penalty beyond or behind basic spot, 3. change of possession?, etc....  ) 

Just trying to figure out a way to get organized when dissecting scenarios and coming up with the proper enforcement.


 pi1eOn



Here's a doc that I made.  I still need to tweak with the new rule changes.  Hope this helps.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2023, 01:09:56 PM »
Here's a doc that I made.  I still need to tweak with the new rule changes.  Hope this helps.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit

Excellent "Reference" material not only for "Beginners", but for those of us with inconsistent (or fading) memories as well.  Nice job, thanks for the effort.

Online TLG22ref

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2023, 08:34:58 PM »
Bossman72 great job on the PE document! After 23 years of college I am going to return to HS full time now! Keep up the good work!

Offline dch

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2023, 12:55:59 PM »
The proper reporting of the foul really sets the stage for getting on the right track for the enforcement.  Who, What, When, Where, Status of the ball.
Who -- number, jersey color, offense or defense
What was the foul
When -- Live ball; Dead ball -- before or after the ready for play; At the snap
Where -- (at the flag if inbounds)
Status of the ball -- in player possession; during a pass; fumble; or kick - in flight or grounded

Then the Rule 2 "Spot"definitions -- previous, succeeding, basic, foul, snap, out-of-bounds, inbounds, PSK, end of run, dead ball
and of course "loose ball play" or "running play" (which one)

Establish a routine and order to process the info -- this works for tests and on the field.


Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2023, 07:28:39 AM »
Rule 10 is by far the most complex rule in our code. Over the years, I've seen more enforcement errors in penalty enforcement than in the other nine rules combined; not making a 15 yarder a 5 yarder but enforcement being made from an incorrect spot. The NFHS Rules Committee tries to keep the rules as simple as possible but fair. Exceptions are kept at an exception (with the exception of Rule 10-4 change which added a laundry lists of exceptions,made to keep the rule more fair).

DCH mentioned the "4W's" an important tool in reporting a foul. I stress the "W- When". If there is a COP , it's vital to know when the foul occurred: Before or after the interception, kick return,or fumble recovery. That knowledge will determine whose ball and where. I'm proud of this enforcement we once had 8] :

(1) K1 kicks off from K-40;
(2) R1 recieves ball at R-5;
(3)  R3 punches K2
 @ R-45;  ^flag
(4) R1 fumbles @ R-20;
(5) R2 recovers fumble @ R-25 and off to TD.

We chatted about the 3 "WHEN" possibilites : (1) IF foul occurred BEFORE R1 recieved kick = previous spot; (2) If foul occurred after reception BUT before fumble = spot of fumble -the end of related run; (3) IF foul occurred after fumble recovery and during advance = spot of foul, as behind EOR. We decided on #2 and mark off from R's 20. R's coach said: "Hokey pete, that seems like a long penality  :puke: "

I've had some that I'm NOT so proud of...one that could have cost a team the state championship. At our pre-season coaches' meeting, I pulled the state champ coach aside and explained my error. His response was classic : " I never hesitate to have a good arguement, but in this case, I wouldn't know what I would be arguing about  ::) !"

COACHES TRUST US TO KNOW THE RULES, LET'S EARN THAT TRUST !! tiphat:

IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER, A FEW YEARS AGO IT WAS STATED THAT NFHS HAD 16 EXCEPTIONS TO PENALTY ENFORCEMENT....NCAA HAD 75+...





« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 07:43:39 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline KWH

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2023, 03:25:52 PM »

IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER, A FEW YEARS AGO IT WAS STATED THAT NFHS HAD 16 EXCEPTIONS TO PENALTY ENFORCEMENT....NCAA HAD 75+...[/color][/size][/font][/b]

I would be curious how many times "UNLESS" is used in the  NFHS RULES BOOK?
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

Respectfully Submitted;
Some guy on a message forum

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2023, 04:58:51 AM »
I would be curious how many times "UNLESS" is used in the  NFHS RULES BOOK?
KWH poses a very intriguing question. While at our cottage with time on my hands (2021 Rules Book in one, jar of Guiness in the other) , I began my quest. The rules started on page 11 yet it wasn't until page 21 that 'UNLESS' appeared...1-5-2b : "..UNLESS made of unaltered plain cloth." The rules end on page 96, and as the rain has stopped and sun is coming out, I feel it is time to fire up our party boat.

Interpolated, 'UNLESS' may appear 8-9 times within the 2021 Rules Book. I'm unsure if any new rules added in 2022 & 2023 would have included 'UNLESS'. Someone witjh more time on their hands may wish to continue the quest.

 tR:oLl :puke: :sTiR: tiphat:

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2023, 06:41:48 AM »
Interpolated, 'UNLESS' may appear 8-9 times within the 2021 Rules Book. I'm unsure if any new rules added in 2022 & 2023 would have included 'UNLESS'. Someone witjh more time on their hands may wish to continue the quess.

Mother warned, "An idle mind is the Devil's workshop". Guiness, when used as a deterrent for boredom, only adds to the risk.

Offline refjeff

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Offline Fatso

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2023, 07:49:04 AM »
Here's a doc that I made.  I still need to tweak with the new rule changes.  Hope this helps.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit
Bossman, sorry for the slow reply.  Got busy with work and vacation and just getting back to the forum.  Very nice guide here, thank you! 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Is there a system/process for learning penalty enforcement rules?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2023, 04:11:54 PM »
I don't know if it's the wording of the rules or the sheer volume of possible scenarios, but trying to learn enforcement rules is overwhelming.  How did you go about learning everything?  Do you have a step by step system/process that you run through each time? (like asking yourself 1. loose ball play/ or run, 2. penalty beyond or behind basic spot, 3. change of possession?, etc....  ) 

Just trying to figure out a way to get organized when dissecting scenarios and coming up with the proper enforcement.


 pi1eOn
Not any more..


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