Author Topic: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on... (Read 16437 times)

VALJ · « **on:** August 22, 2018, 03:22:10 PM »

Seen on Facebook, and trying to open discussion here...

We're in overtime, using the NFHS recommended OT procedure. 4/G at the R 10 yard line. K's field goal attempt is unsuccessful. During the attempt, before the kick ends, K holds.

Can R elect under 10-4-2 to enforce the foul at the succeeding spot, 1/G at the 5? It's a foul by K during a scrimmage kick (or scrimmage kick down) other than KCI and K will not be the next to put the ball into play.

bbeagle · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:43:28 PM »

What about these?

4th and 10 on the 50.
K kicks the ball, it's blocked at the line of scrimmage, punter recovers the ball behind the line of scrimmage

1. ... and intentionally throws the ball away.
2. ... and throws to receiver K2 who commits offensive pass interference. Ball is dropped.
3. ... and throws to receiver K2 who commits intentional offensive pass interference. Ball is dropped.
4. ... and K4 commits a 15-yard facemask on an R player on the line of scrimmage before the ball is thrown downfield to a receiver who drops the ball.

This is a scrimmage kick down, and K will not be the next to put the ball into play. Do the tack-ons apply? Does it matter in 1? Can I tack on the double foul in 3?

ncwingman · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2018, 04:56:29 PM »

Quote from: VALJ on August 22, 2018, 03:22:10 PM

Seen on Facebook, and trying to open discussion here...

We're in overtime, using the NFHS recommended OT procedure. 4/G at the R 10 yard line. K's field goal attempt is unsuccessful. During the attempt, before the kick ends, K holds.

Can R elect under 10-4-2 to enforce the foul at the succeeding spot, 1/G at the 5? It's a foul by K during a scrimmage kick (or scrimmage kick down) other than KCI and K will not be the next to put the ball into play.

Strictly speaking, yes. The beginning of the OT series can be the succeeding spot for penalty enforcement.

However... what if K wins the OT coin toss and elects to go on offense first (or R wins and chooses defense)? Then K will be the next to put the ball in play and R cannot have the penalty enforced (it was effectively declined). There is no guarantee that R will be the next to put the ball in play.

Quote from: bbeagle on August 22, 2018, 03:43:28 PM

What about these?

4th and 10 on the 50.
K kicks the ball, it's blocked at the line of scrimmage, punter recovers the ball behind the line of scrimmage

1. ... and intentionally throws the ball away.
2. ... and throws to receiver K2 who commits offensive pass interference. Ball is dropped.
3. ... and throws to receiver K2 who commits intentional offensive pass interference. Ball is dropped.
4. ... and K4 commits a 15-yard facemask on an R player on the line of scrimmage before the ball is thrown downfield to a receiver who drops the ball.

This is a scrimmage kick down, and K will not be the next to put the ball into play. Do the tack-ons apply? Does it matter in 1? Can I tack on the double foul in 3?

By rule, yes, all of those should be tack ons. #3 is not a double foul -- it's a double penalty for a single foul. (Edit -- and if K commits two fouls, that would be multiple, not double, but you couldn't enforce both fouls in a multiple foul situation either)

I think this highlights the need to define "scrimmage kick down" somewhere (that particular phrase is not actually defined -- we just assume it means the down during which there is a legal scrimmage kick).

SCline · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2018, 10:52:27 PM »

^ I agree with all that you said but what does this mean?

“However... what if K wins the OT coin toss and elects to go on offense first (or R wins and chooses defense)? Then K will be the next to put the ball in play and R cannot have the penalty enforced (it was effectively declined). There is no guarantee that R will be the next to put the ball in play.”

bama_stripes · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:20:09 AM »

Logically speaking, I wouldn’t allow a tack-on in any of those situations. The purpose of the rule is to prevent rekicks, and R certainly isn’t going to give K another chance to kick a game-winner.

I thought the only carry-over fouls in FED were an R foul on a successful FG, and DB fouls after time expires in regulation.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:53:59 AM »

I read something recently suggesting the tack on exception would not apply in OT. I’m sure it was not official though.

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ncwingman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2018, 08:48:30 AM »

Quote from: SCline on August 22, 2018, 10:52:27 PM

^ I agree with all that you said but what does this mean?

“However... what if K wins the OT coin toss and elects to go on offense first (or R wins and chooses defense)? Then K will be the next to put the ball in play and R cannot have the penalty enforced (it was effectively declined). There is no guarantee that R will be the next to put the ball in play.”

Part of the tack-on exception states that K is not the next to put the ball in play. Since the team that puts the ball in play in OT is determined by the coin toss, and not the action of the scrimmage kick down, we would have to wait until after the coin toss (and selections made) to determine if this portion of the enforcement exception is met.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2018, 09:12:39 AM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on August 23, 2018, 06:53:59 AM

I read something recently suggesting the tack on exception would not apply in OT. I’m sure it was not official though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NFHS provides an OT framework for states to use or modify as they choose. In Maine we will not provide a tack-on option for a missed FG in OT. Why

? - Because of the confusion we share per this topic.

Orin Robinson · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2018, 09:40:53 AM »

This could have implications for the choosing team for the second half kickoff as well as in overtime.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2018, 09:49:44 AM »

Quote from: ncwingman on August 23, 2018, 08:48:30 AM

Part of the tack-on exception states that K is not the next to put the ball in play. Since the team that puts the ball in play in OT is determined by the coin toss, and not the action of the scrimmage kick down, we would have to wait until after the coin toss (and selections made) to determine if this portion of the enforcement exception is met.

I think this is a great argument for not allowing the exception to be applied in OT. Since, at the time of the foul, one of the requirements for the exception has not been met or determined, the exception should not apply. Same thing with carrying the foul over into the second half.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2018, 10:23:03 AM »

If a tack-on (which is a live ball foul) arose on the last play of the first half and was accepted, we would then have an untimed down. Only dead ball fouls that occur after the half has ended would be enforced on 2nd half kickoff.

VA Official · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2018, 10:42:40 AM »

I would say even under the current rule as written that tack-on in OT is not an option. The rule states that "K will not be next to put the ball in play." Since K may end up putting the ball in play next, we can't say K will not put the ball in play at the time of penalty administration. So, the requirement for tack-on has not been met and it's enforced under ABO.

Stinterp · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2018, 11:41:28 AM »

Ralph, your referring to K fouls I assume. Certain fouls by R can carry.

VALJ · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2018, 12:13:36 PM »

FWIW, I think that the SPIRIT of the rule is that we wouldn't carry the foul to R's possession in OT. But I'm not sure, despite VA Officials' literalism, if that's what the rule actually says.

bjfb · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2018, 01:10:17 PM »

We were told at our state clinic in South Carolina, the "tack on rule" will not apply to overtime.

It would be helpful if NFHS would issue the Interps/Corrections sooner than later.

BoBo · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2018, 02:23:23 PM »

I checking where the state of Iowa will rule on this. I just emailed our State Supervisor who so happens to be the head of the National Rules for Football. I will be interested in to see what he says

BoBo · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2018, 11:30:29 AM »

Ok so lets hope I do not mess any one up with this.

On scrimmage kick that is not a try.

IN OVERTIME

If K attempts a scrimmage kick and K fouls prior to or during the kick R will have the option of the foul being enforced at the succeeding spot whether the kick is good or no good. Yes this will be crazy to explain to a coach but it is how the rule would be enforced if your state is following the NFHS Overtime procedure.

So R could have 1st and Goal at the 5 to start their OT possession.

This foul can not carry over from end of game or OT to OT. ( i have reedited the last two sentences from my original post)

From reading and self educating to have a tack on enforced, it has to be a scrimmage kick play, ball must cross the neutral zone, K must foul prior to or during the kick, and R must be next to snap the ball at the succeeding spot for any of this to even happen.

Each state has their own OT rules. THIS WOULD BE FOR STATES UNDER THE NFHS OVERTIME PROCEDURES.

** ok now you can let me know what i messed up**

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2018, 12:39:28 PM »

“From reading and self educating to have a tack on enforced, it has to be a scrimmage kick play, ball must cross the neutral zone, K must foul prior to or during the kick, and R must be next to snap the ball at the succeeding spot for any of this to even happen.”

1. The play does not have to be a scrimmage kick play. The tack on exception applies to free kicks as well.
2. The ball does not necessarily have to cross the neutral zone. There are some legal kicks that never do.
3. At the present time the exception states that any foul by K (except Kick-Catch Interference) which happens during the DOWN. While the consensus on this site is that the intention is for the exception to apply only to fouls occurring before or during the loose-ball part of the kicking down, the technical reading of down implies the totality of the down.

bbeagle · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2018, 08:20:02 AM »

4th and 10 on the K5. K leading 10-8 with :10 left.

K1's punt is blocked. He recovers the ball in his end zone, and intentionally throws the ball away under duress.

In prior years, whether the penalty is accepted or declined, it's a safety. Ball kicked by K from the 20.

Now, the penalty should be accepted, it's still a safety, but the ball is kicked by K from the 15. I guess we would give no options now, just automatically accept the penalty?

If the clock ran out on the play, would we still enforce a safety kick? I'd imagine that R would want a free play to try to score.... they could also fair catch the kick from the 15 and get yet another untimed down to kick a fair catch field goal?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2018, 08:25:32 AM »

In this case, K will be the next to put the ball in play, so I'm assuming the exception would not apply. It's still a safety, and K will kick from the 20.. To answer the replay question, the period is not extended on a safety, so no. (assuming the play was the last in the 2nd or 4th quarter. if the clock ran out in the 1st or 3rd, we would kick from the succeeding spot to start the new period.)

VA Official · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2018, 09:00:50 AM »

As Calhoun mentioned, K will next put the ball in play. When determining who will next put the ball in play, you have to remove all fouls from the play and determine what the result would be. Since the ball is left in K's possession at the spot of the foul on an incomplete IFP that is declined, it's a safety so K will kickoff. If the IFP had been completed (say it was a 2nd forward pass) and the result of the play was not a safety but rather a turnover on downs (R is next to put the ball in play), then it depends on your state's interpretation of the rule. The kick ended when K1 recovered it. A few states have said this ends the tack-on enforcement option for fouls after that point. The rule in it's literal reading allows for fouls during the entire down to be tacked-on.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2018, 10:06:02 AM »

Quote from: VALJ on August 23, 2018, 12:13:36 PM

FWIW, I think that the SPIRIT of the rule is that we wouldn't carry the foul to R's possession in OT. But I'm not sure, despite VA Officials' literalism, if that's what the rule actually says.

I've never been able to consistently deal with "curve balls" (or endless speculation). So until I see a really straight fast ball, from NFHS telling me otherwise, I'm going to rely on "Resolving Tied Games" instruction 5-1-1, which advises, "If the defensive team gains possession, the ball becomes dead immediately and the offensive team's series of downs ends immediately."

"After the first team on offense has completed it's series of downs, the first team on defense will become the offensive team with the ball in it's possession at the same 10 YL anywhere between the hash marks.

5-3-1 confirms: The line to gain is always the goal line regardless of whether or not a penalty enforcement places the ball more than 10 yards from the goal line to start a new series.

jgf6 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2018, 11:41:28 AM »

VALJ, in your scenario, the foul would be declined therefore not carried over into overtime. If the foul is accepted, the try would be repeated after enforcement. At least that's how I interpret the rule.

VALJ · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2018, 01:06:07 PM »

Quote from: jgf6 on August 29, 2018, 11:41:28 AM

VALJ, in your scenario, the foul would be declined therefore not carried over into overtime. If the foul is accepted, the try would be repeated after enforcement. At least that's how I interpret the rule.

My scenario is a FG attempt, not a try.

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on August 29, 2018, 10:06:02 AM

I've never been able to consistently deal with "curve balls" (or endless speculation). So until I see a really straight fast ball, from NFHS telling me otherwise, I'm going to rely on "Resolving Tied Games" instruction 5-1-1, which advises, "If the defensive team gains possession, the ball becomes dead immediately and the offensive team's series of downs ends immediately."

"After the first team on offense has completed it's series of downs, the first team on defense will become the offensive team with the ball in it's possession at the same 10 YL anywhere between the hash marks.

5-3-1 confirms: The line to gain is always the goal line regardless of whether or not a penalty enforcement places the ball more than 10 yards from the goal line to start a new series.

Which is all well and good, Al, but if K fouls before the kick has ended, the ball isn't in the defensive team's possession, and the ball is still live.

Again, I would argue that the spirit of the rules is that this is designed primarily for a punt play, which won't happen in OT, and only incidentally applies to a failed field goal attempt. But if a smart coach calls a time out to discuss with the referee that we should tack a foul during the failed FG attempt to end the series, I'm not sure (in the absence of an interpretation from my state or from Fed) we wouldn't habe to say he's right.

jgf6 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2018, 06:24:19 PM »

My mistake on the try vs the field goal but wouldn't the same hold true for a field goal. Score tied with 4 seconds remaining in the 4th Qtr. K attempts a field goal, unsuccessful, and during the kick K holds and time runs out. If R accepts the penalty the down would be replayed as an untimed down. Undoubtedly R will decline the penalty and take the game into overtime.
If in the first series in overtime K attempts a field goal on 4th down, which is unsuccessful, and K holds during the kick. Wouldn't the same options above apply? In both cases, 10-4-2 Exception would not apply. In these cases, R cannot both accept the penalty and not replay the down. What am I missing?