Author Topic: Uncommonly enforced rules  (Read 18715 times)

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Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2021, 09:23:08 PM »
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There is no chance that we are going to look at numbers on the kickoff.

I'm going to disagree here, especially with the kicking team. I'm often the official giving the kicker the ball, and that is on my checklist before they ever get the ball from me. Whether that's as U in a SV 4 man crew, B in a 5 or 7, or C in a college game. I'm making sure they have 11 players, I'm making sure they are legally numbered, and I'm making sure everybody is on or in front of the line for legal formation (35 in HS, 30 in NCAA). They don't get the ball from me until I've made sure all three of those things happen. My R and wings are looking at the same thing for the receiving team and the R won't blow it ready for play until the receiving team has 11 players and legal numbers. The kickoff is one of the few chances in a game that we have time to do a hard reset and make sure everything and everybody is exactly right. Take advantage of that.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2021, 11:49:58 AM »
Butt-blocking is also a rare call. I can only recall of seeing it called once and that was in the movie Porky. Pee-Wee called Blubba McGirth for butt-blocking his view in the shower-room scene. >:D . Intentional Pass Interference would also be near the tops.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2021, 12:42:08 PM »
The kickoff is one of the few chances in a game that we have time to do a hard reset and make sure everything and everybody is exactly right. Take advantage of that.

Agree, wholeheartedly.  One slight difference, I always made the potential kicker count HIS players and confirm to me that HE had 11, and was ready to go before handing him the ball.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2021, 02:25:31 PM »
Are there any rules about numbering on a kickoff? AFAIK, the only requirement is that there are 11 players, and there is no legal way to make a forward pass on a free kick play.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2021, 03:27:22 PM »
Are there any rules about numbering on a kickoff? AFAIK, the only requirement is that there are 11 players,...

Are 11 players actually required (either team)?

Is there a requirement for any particular number of teammates on each side of the kicker when the ball is kicked?

How about duplicate numbers?

How about numbers outside the legal range?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2021, 05:48:17 PM »
Are there any rules about numbering on a kickoff? AFAIK, the only requirement is that there are 11 players, and there is no legal way to make a forward pass on a free kick play.
7-2-5c:
c. Players of the same team shall not participate during the same down while wearing Identical numbers.

A free kick is a down


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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2021, 06:14:27 PM »
Are 11 players actually required (either team)?  No but no good R is going to let either side start a KO with less.

Is there a requirement for any particular number of teammates on each side of the kicker when the ball is kicked?  At least 4 on each side of the kicker

How about duplicate numbers? Illegal numbering

How about numbers outside the legal range? Illegal numbering or equipment violation, depending on who one asks.

Offline SCline

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2021, 11:05:10 PM »
In theory K needs 9 players to play a free kick down. 4 on either side of the kicker plus the kicker. As stated above no crew worth their salt should give the RFP without both teams having 11.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2021, 07:04:05 AM »
In theory K needs 9 players to play a free kick down. 4 on either side of the kicker plus the kicker. As stated above no crew worth their salt should give the RFP without both teams having 11.
While this is certainly true, I think it reveals a glitch in the rule regarding intent. The reason for 4 on each side of the kicker is to prevent K from overloading the formation to one side. In the very unlikely event K’s player numbers were reduced to less than 9, common sense should prevail and let them kick with less than four to a side. Or else they couldn’t kickoff. Maybe an editorial change? A “less than five on each side” requirement?


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Offline SCline

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2021, 01:13:16 PM »
I think 1-1-6 would suffice :sTiR: ;D

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2021, 02:11:03 PM »
I think 1-1-6 would suffice :sTiR: ;D
Ah, the Ole god rule.


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Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2021, 02:48:14 PM »
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A “less than five on each side” requirement

The best way to handle it would be “no more than 6 on either side”, similar to NCAA changing their formation rule from “at least 7 on the line” to “no more than 4 in the backfield”.

Quote
I think 1-1-6 would suffice :sTiR: ;D

Now why did you have to mention that...

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice...

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2021, 09:54:03 AM »
The best way to handle it would be “no more than 6 on either side”, similar to NCAA changing their formation rule from “at least 7 on the line” to “no more than 4 in the backfield”.

Now why did you have to mention that...

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice...

Actually, NFHS 1-1-6 has proven countless times to produce a far better, more practical and specifically tailored solution to unprecedented, unique and specific challenges than relying on opposing interests trying to "out-stupid" each other pursuing biased interests.

Offline SCline

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2021, 06:31:01 PM »

Offline KWH

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2021, 05:15:05 PM »


1) - Intentional Pass Interference as in Table 7-5, 2c

2) - Designating which team will kick off as in 8-3-9 and 8-4-2
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

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Some guy on a message forum

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2021, 07:22:11 PM »
Actually, NFHS 1-1-6 has proven countless times to produce a far better, more practical and specifically tailored solution to unprecedented, unique and specific challenges than relying on opposing interests trying to "out-stupid" each other pursuing biased interests.

It worked!

How exactly do you think making a logical rule change is better than letting a crew make it up on the fly? If 1-1-6 is so useful, please provide a couple of the "countless" real life examples of when you have used it for the betterment of a game. And who do you think is "biased" or "opposing" here?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2021, 08:19:37 AM »
It worked!

How exactly do you think making a logical rule change is better than letting a crew make it up on the fly? If 1-1-6 is so useful, please provide a couple of the "countless" real life examples of when you have used it for the betterment of a game. And who do you think is "biased" or "opposing" here?

Well that conclusion is based the  the presumption, that the Referee, empowered to make  the ruling, "in the spirit of good sportsmanship" is  logical, rational, IMPARTIAL and experienced enough (with the added knowledge available through consultation with his crew) to render a carefully considered, informed judgment, based on the unique (not covered by rule) situation being confronted with necessitating a decision.

NFHS: 1-1-6 does not connote any "Divine" influence or power, but when applied to unique, appropriate (not covered by rule) situations seems far more practical, and conducive to the appropriate continuance of the contest at hand, and the interest of participants than endless discussion between active competitors whose inherently biased interests, overwhelmingly influence their perspective. 

Until such point, where EVERY POSSIBLE situation was actually "covered by rule" 1-1-6 provides a necessary, and practical SPECIFIC means of addressing potential disputes, on site, to allow prompt continuation of the game at hand.  Where deemed necessary, any such decisions rendered can be further addressed by appropriate review, which may serve to add further detail, or clarity, to existing rule coverage.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2021, 01:36:06 PM »
While intentional pass interference is called as often as Haley's Comet is viewed (every 75 years), I'm considering adding a little spice to that. Since we hulled out the auto 1st down and loss of down on PI calls the phobia has been that some coach  >:D will game the system and instruct his players to intentionally interfere on goal-to-go situations, if beaten. Adding an AFD/LOD component to IPI would give us rule support to prevent a coach from doing that. Opinions, all...…..

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2021, 02:14:57 PM »
Overall, that sounds like a solution in search of a problem. The "phobia" is that a coach will instruct players to do that... but have they? Is this a problem that needs solved? I certainly have never encountered it. I think this is a scenario where the average high school player isn't skilled enough to really pull it off. You give the option to Belichek and the Pats, and they'll abuse the crap out of it, but not your average varsity squad.

The second catch is that "intentional" is very ill defined. In general, accidental or incidental contact is ignored. In order for me to throw a PI flag, it'll be an "intentional" act. It's hard to define exactly what this "double secret intentional" PI that warrants a second penalty would ever be.

Finally, I'm very much not a fan of the NFL's rule that just about every defensive penalty comes with an AFD, and don't want that to start to creep into Fed rules. NFL Rule 14-1-2-5 lists the fouls that do *not* result in an automatic first down, because that's the shorter list (there are 10 of them, when you list offside, encroachment and a neutral zone infraction as three separate penalties). I would be okay with some 15 yarders getting an AFD, as some DBPF or USC actions are more deserving of that than just roughing the passer. I don't think we need any more penalties that come with LOD though.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2021, 03:18:31 PM »
While intentional pass interference is called as often as Haley's Comet is viewed (every 75 years), I'm considering adding a little spice to that. Since we hulled out the auto 1st down and loss of down on PI calls the phobia has been that some coach  >:D will game the system and instruct his players to intentionally interfere on goal-to-go situations, if beaten. Adding an AFD/LOD component to IPI would give us rule support to prevent a coach from doing that. Opinions, all...…..

For fear of providing Pandora with yet another box to tempt us with, providing Coaches with the added opportunity to complain/argue about which Pass Interference calls (they considered) "deliberate" (and/or intentional), I'd be hesitant about adding an additional level of penalty. 

However, if the foul committed was so egregious as to rise to an occasion of invoking additional penalty, one might consider, the currently available option 9-4-3g, which also provides for (in the Penalty summary) "DISQUALIFICATION also IF ANY FOULS UNDER THESE ARTICLES are judged BY THE GAME OFFICIAL to be FLAGRANT".   
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 03:25:15 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2021, 04:18:24 PM »
For fear of providing Pandora with yet another box to tempt us with, providing Coaches with the added opportunity to complain/argue about which Pass Interference calls (they considered) "deliberate" (and/or intentional), I'd be hesitant about adding an additional level of penalty. 

However, if the foul committed was so egregious as to rise to an occasion of invoking additional penalty, one might consider, the currently available option 9-4-3g, which also provides for (in the Penalty summary) "DISQUALIFICATION also IF ANY FOULS UNDER THESE ARTICLES are judged BY THE GAME OFFICIAL to be FLAGRANT".   
So you’re advocating for ejecting a player for committing intentional pass interference? Sounds logical and sensible to me.


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Offline SCline

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2021, 09:29:26 PM »
LOL. I’d love to read that ejection report too Calhoun.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2021, 09:38:51 PM »
We worried as well about the possibility of IPI when the AFD was removed.  I haven’t heard of a single case of this in our state.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2021, 05:18:53 AM »
We worried as well about the possibility of IPI when the AFD was removed.  I haven’t heard of a single case of this in our state.
We haven’t either. But I still like the idea of AFD for DPI


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Uncommonly enforced rules
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2021, 05:38:35 AM »
LOL. I’d love to read that ejection report too Calhoun.
“Coach, your number 24 has been ejected for pass interference.” 

“PI!? Are you kidding me?”

 “No sir. He meant to do it.” 


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