Author Topic: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION  (Read 8641 times)

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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2023, 10:23:33 AM »
Because B's foul almost, if not always deprives A of the opportunity to gain some of those yards back.

Offline CalhounLJ

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SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2023, 10:24:58 AM »
Because B's foul almost, if not always deprives A of the opportunity to gain some of those yards back.
But they get the yardage back on the penalty enforcement. No? Plus A gets the down back.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2023, 10:32:12 AM »
But they get the yardage back on the penalty enforcement. No? Plus A gets the down back.


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Take a facemask 10yds deep as an example. To bring that up to previous spot and mark it off from there gives A a 25 yard gain plus a new set of downs in most cases. Marking it off from the spot of foul or end run only gives the 15 and a replay, while still giving B credit for causing the 10 yd loss.


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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2023, 11:32:12 AM »
I definitely see your point.  But, it becomes a question of, what would A have gotten, had they not been fouled?  I'm not Fed (obviously) but one common refrain I have seen in this discussion (and others) is giving B credit for a good play behind the line, but when there's a foul involved, IMO that 'good play' gets wiped out.  You don't get 10 yards of yardage credit for a facemask foul 10 yards behind the line, because you didn't get that yardage cleanly.  JMO.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2023, 11:56:25 AM »
IMHO, the ABO application will still be alive and kicking (flagging) on running plays BEYOND the LOS and after COP. I've proposed the previous spot enforcement on fouls by B when the run ends behind the LOS , this time it will be considered along with A fouls behind the LOS which has strong support. IMHO, it defies logic to give a better result to a QB who fumbles the ball than one who hangs onto it. Our NY Giant taxi-squad Dragon coach
(from above war story) also agrees  yEs: yEs:

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2023, 07:43:32 PM »
I definitely see your point.  But, it becomes a question of, what would A have gotten, had they not been fouled?  I'm not Fed (obviously) but one common refrain I have seen in this discussion (and others) is giving B credit for a good play behind the line, but when there's a foul involved, IMO that 'good play' gets wiped out.  You don't get 10 yards of yardage credit for a facemask foul 10 yards behind the line, because you didn't get that yardage cleanly.  JMO.
Yeah I get it, but why didn’t B get the ten yard loss before the foul cleanly? A retreated 10 yards behind the line either under duress or voluntarily BEFORE B fouled. That’s on them. Why give them the extra benefit? It’s like we bail A out of a bad play and then tack the foul yardage on.


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Offline bossman72

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #81 on: January 07, 2023, 10:25:42 PM »
IMHO, the ABO application will still be alive and kicking (flagging) on running plays BEYOND the LOS and after COP. I've proposed the previous spot enforcement on fouls by B when the run ends behind the LOS , this time it will be considered along with A fouls behind the LOS which has strong support. IMHO, it defies logic to give a better result to a QB who fumbles the ball than one who hangs onto it. Our NY Giant taxi-squad Dragon coach
(from above war story) also agrees  yEs: yEs:

I think an important part of this rule is to make runs that end behind the LOS have the basic spot as the previous spot.  So essentially, the end of the run (or basic spot) can never be behind the LOS.
This could also clean up definitions and therefore make loose ball plays only happen during a legal pass or kick.  Simple.  Easy.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2023, 08:10:21 AM »
I think an important part of this rule is to make runs that end behind the LOS have the basic spot as the previous spot.  So essentially, the end of the run (or basic spot) can never be behind the LOS.
This could also clean up definitions and therefore make loose ball plays only happen during a legal pass or kick.  Simple.  Easy.

I've got no problem with this but my thought would be that we should not replay the down if the foul is by team A behind the line.  As part of the penalty enforcement let the down count and IMHO that better balances out the interplay between B potentially being denied a significant loss of yardage play and A having an insurmountable line to gain distance if enforced from the spot of the foul.  IMHO that's a fair tradeoff.  :sTiR:
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2023, 10:14:42 AM »
I think an important part of this rule is to make runs that end behind the LOS have the basic spot as the previous spot.  So essentially, the end of the run (or basic spot) can never be behind the LOS.
This could also clean up definitions and therefore make loose ball plays only happen during a legal pass or kick.  Simple.  Easy.

But not "fair" to B.

1. A CHOSE to design & run a play, that involved retreating, to counter B.
2. the chosen play FAILED as B was able to contact A behind the line.
3. to prevent, or avoid, loss from that contact, A CHOSE to foul.
4. B achieved 2 goals; thwarting the design/intent of A's decision to gain advantage by retreat, to avoid B, and having A foul B to avoid loss of yardage.

A made two mistakes; (but only 1 foul)
1. Designing a play that failed to counter B's pursuit.
2. Fouling to prevent B's pursuit from causing (further) loss.

What did B to wrong?

If B were guilty of fouling;

1. B still achieved it's goal in breaching A's plan by contacting A where they chose to retreat,
2. However, B chose to foul in order to end the play, at some point BEHIND the previous spot.

Both A and/or B's fouls happened at a "Succeeding spot", which is where either is enforced.

Offline TSHunt

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2023, 07:26:22 PM »
A bit late to the party but I figured I'd share with the class.
Santa has plenty of gifts (new rules proposals) for the upcoming year. I value your opinions and would enjoy hearing from them.

(1) Failure to wear proper equipment = 1st, warning > 2nd  = 5 yards > 3rd = 15 yards USC > 4th & more = 15 yards USC + Disq.
This seems a little messy to enforce. Trying to keep track of everything could be problematic.
(2) Any colored towels = OK
Sure
(3) Expand list of illegal equipment.
I'm not sure what exactly you'd be looking to add.
(4) Leaping OOB player is still OOB until landing IB.
Yes
(5) Clock starts on RFP after OOB unless under 2 min. in half.
Would very much like this for pace of play, but I understand the coach perspective on this.
(6) If K/A subs, R/B can sub prior to snap.
I don't have a big push for or against this. Would be fine either way.
(7) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble.
Yes. Yards gained on a fumble feels like the fumble is being rewarded, which IMO should not be the case.
(8) Only the player that takes snap can legal IG.
This cuts out the hypothetical "HB Toss throw away" and would likely be rarely needed like in the college game. Sure.
(9) After ball goes beyond LOS, can't have forward pass.
Yes
(10) IG only LOD at spot.
50/50 on this. If I had to choose I'd say the 5 is fine.
(11) Legalize 'pushing the pile'.
No, this seems like a safety issue where a kid gets injured by being pushed by opposing players
(12) Legalize hurdling.
No, not worth safety risk
(13) Strengthen 'defenseless player'.
How so?
(14) Hands to the face = 15 yards.
Yes, bring in line and make it a PF
(15) AFD/LOD if PF.
LOD seems too much for an O that just got pushed back 15+, and just having AFD seems unbalanced.
(16) AFD if USC by B.
See above, just having an AFD feels unbalanced. Fine with the 15 and in most cases that's a 1st anyways.
(17) Coaches bail moat on RFP
Fine with this. Restricted area is a tough cookie to deal with regardless.
(18) Previous spot if foul by A behind LOS or by B if run ends behind LOS.
Would really like this. Ends the plays where fumbling gets an offense more yards. Could see some issue with gifting free yards to A on holds/Illegal blocks behind LOS.
Please let me know your opinions. Thank you  tiphat:

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2023, 02:56:07 PM »
A bit late to the party but I figured I'd share with the class.

May well be that, some time ago, Pass Interference efforts were getting a little too intense, so IPI, with it's EXTRA 15 yards, was introduced to temper the progress.  The lack of seeing it applied very often, suggests it was a rational idea, that helps prevent such behavior.  Like keeping a big stick available in the front of a closet, with the door left ALWAYS open.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2023, 06:16:26 PM »
May well be that, some time ago, Pass Interference efforts were getting a little too intense, so IPI, with it's EXTRA 15 yards, was introduced to temper the progress.  The lack of seeing it applied very often, suggests it was a rational idea, that helps prevent such behavior.  Like keeping a big stick available in the front of a closet, with the door left ALWAYS open.
Much like someone entering your house would likely not know there is a big stick in your closet, most players and coaches do not know there is such a thing as IPI. 


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2023, 10:47:13 AM »
Much like someone entering your house would likely not know there is a big stick in your closet, most players and coaches do not know there is such a thing as IPI. 


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Why should ignorance be considered a valid excuse for stupidity? (for either IPI or burglary)

Offline bbeagle

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2023, 12:37:31 PM »
Take a facemask 10yds deep as an example. To bring that up to previous spot and mark it off from there gives A a 25 yard gain plus a new set of downs in most cases. Marking it off from the spot of foul or end run only gives the 15 and a replay, while still giving B credit for causing the 10 yd loss.

What about the play where the QB is in the pocket and sacked by pulling him down by his facemask? Why should B get credit for an illegal tackle?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2023, 03:08:46 PM »
What about the play where the QB is in the pocket and sacked by pulling him down by his facemask? Why should B get credit for an illegal tackle?

It was "A's" decision to retreat, in able to better complete THEIR designed play, "B", unfortunately, fouled in making his tackle & will be penalized accordingly, however "B" did nothing wrong by causing "A" to decide to retreat.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2023, 04:25:20 PM »
Al, can you give a single instance of a (legal)play that doesn't involve the ball being somewhere behind the LOS? 

It's not that A chose to retreat necessarily, there's literally no play option (that I can think of) that doesn't put the ball somewhere behind the line - therefore, not their choice.

The foul shouldn't award B the yardage A retreated, because A was deprived of the right to advance the ball, without being fouled.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2023, 07:04:19 PM »
What about the play where the QB is in the pocket and sacked by pulling him down by his facemask? Why should B get credit for an illegal tackle?
He doesn’t. He gets credit for A retreating. Then he gets penalized for the facemask. Plus A gets to replay the down.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2023, 09:28:12 PM »
Al, can you give a single instance of a (legal)play that doesn't involve the ball being somewhere behind the LOS? 

It's not that A chose to retreat necessarily, there's literally no play option (that I can think of) that doesn't put the ball somewhere behind the line - therefore, not their choice.

The foul shouldn't award B the yardage A retreated, because A was deprived of the right to advance the ball, without being fouled.

Perhaps I misunderstood the original question.  I thought it related to A being pressured, and retreating deeper behind the LOS (like in a passing, or retreating running play - AWAY from the LOS (which is usually A CHOICE, caused by defensive pressure).

I understood the inference suggesting the "A" was being "deprived of the right to advance" DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF THE EFFORT BY "B", and is therefore RESPONSIBLE for their choice of fouling, rather than otherwise avoiding "B's" pressure.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2023, 01:52:49 PM »
Back from Indy with the new rules, as in the past , they remain top-secret until the NFHS press release. The timeframe is usually around 3 weeks. You then will able to tell us how S/S (smart/stupid) we were  :)

Thank you, again, for your opinions . That was valuable.  :)
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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2023, 02:16:59 PM »
Back from Indy with the new rules, as in the past , they remain top-secret until the NFHS press release. The timeframe is usually around 3 weeks. You then will able to tell us how S/S (smart/stupid) we were  :)

Thank you, again, for your opinions . That was valuable.  :)
                                                                                       Ralph  tiphat:

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I can't wait.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2023, 05:52:45 PM »
Why should ignorance be considered a valid excuse for stupidity? (for either IPI or burglary)
Not the point. My point was the IPI foul does not stop IPI because players and coaches in general DO NOT KNOW THE RULE EXISTS, as it does not get called very often if at all.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2023, 10:36:04 AM »
Not the point. My point was the IPI foul does not stop IPI because players and coaches in general DO NOT KNOW THE RULE EXISTS, as it does not get called very often if at all.


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Disqualification (formerly Ejection) is, thankfully, rarely necessary, not because "players & coaches" aren't aware of it, rather because there are "potentially" serious consequences, BEYOND, the proscribed penalty either will likely have to deal with after the fact.

Of course, there are always a few who don't bother to think about the potential damage a "big stick laying in a closet" might cause, but most understand, and appreciate, what damage it "might" do, if used.  The same is true, thus far, for IPI, except for really STUPID non-believers, who insist on seeing for themselves.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2023, 01:47:01 PM »
Much like someone entering your house would likely not know there is a big stick in your closet, most players and coaches do not know there is such a thing as IPI. 
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I would disagree with that statement.  Additionally, even if they did not know, it is an attempt to put a stop to intentionally tackling a receiver when it was obvious to the defender that he's been beat him for a big play, maybe even a touchdown. 
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2023, 02:38:22 PM »
I would disagree with that statement.  Additionally, even if they did not know, it is an attempt to put a stop to intentionally tackling a receiver when it was obvious to the defender that he's been beat him for a big play, maybe even a touchdown.
Not trying to pick a fight here, but I would love to hear how many of you have ever thrown this flag.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: SANTA'S WISH LIST .....2023 VERSION
« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2023, 04:05:01 PM »
I've never thrown it (U or R).  I've been in games twice where we've had it.  One HS and one youth.  As it was described to me they were both flagrant takedown "tackles".
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