Invalid Fair Catch Signal?

[sczeebra]

Would anybody here consider making the same call as the officials in the Tenn. vs Bama? (14:12 in the 3rd)

[ncwingman]

I didn't watch the game, but saw a replay clip so maybe I missed some follow up comment made later, but it sounded like there were two returners on a kickoff, one signaled for a fair catch and the other caught the ball. I couldn't see the actual signal given, but the officials were killing the play immediately. This doesn't sound like it was an invalid signal, but the ball is dead when possessed by R after any fair catch signal. If a player signals for a fair catch, and then somebody else catches it, it is not a fair catch but the play is still dead as if it were. I assume this is why the ball was placed at the 4 (where the catch was made) rather than the 25 (NCAA rules on kick off fair catches are different than Fed, so there may be some nuance to that that I'm unaware of).

If I was in that position, I would sure hope I would kill the play after a fair catch signal when the kick is possessed by R. That is the correct thing to do.

At first I was also confused because I thought you'd be asking about the Iowa/Minnesota game, as that did involve an invalid signal.

[CalhounLJ]

I'm not sure, but I think he's talking about placing it at the 4 instead of awarding a TB. I'm sure they made the correct call on that, but it did seem weird. I'm not an NCAA guy though.

[ncwingman]

I'm not sure, but I think he's talking about placing it at the 4 instead of awarding a TB. I'm sure they made the correct call on that, but it did seem weird. I'm not an NCAA guy though.

I'm not finding an explicit rule in the NCAA book like the Fed book about it, but it is implied that if B1 signals and B2 catches the kick, it is not a fair catch akin to 6-5-3 in Fed rules. 2-8-1b states that a fair catch is a catch made by a player who has made a valid signal during a free kick, implying that it must be the same player. The ball is placed at the 25 after a fair catch on a free kick, so if it is not a fair catch, the ball is next put in play where it became dead -- where B2 caught the ball after B1's signal.

AR 6-5-1-III also states that if B5 signals for a fair catch on a free kick, but then muffs the kick and recovers, the ball is placed at the spot of the recovery and not the 25 since it was not a fair catch.

I agree that it was done correctly, unless there's something else I'm missing.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant under Fed rules, since a free kick fair catch is put in play next at the spot of the fair catch, regardless of where it occurred.

[sczeebra]

It just seemed that the actual movement of the receivers arms did not warrant calling it a signal.

[dammitbobby]

I'm not finding an explicit rule in the NCAA book like the Fed book about it, but it is implied that if B1 signals and B2 catches the kick, it is not a fair catch akin to 6-5-3 in Fed rules. 2-8-1b states that a fair catch is a catch made by a player who has made a valid signal during a free kick, implying that it must be the same player. The ball is placed at the 25 after a fair catch on a free kick, so if it is not a fair catch, the ball is next put in play where it became dead -- where B2 caught the ball after B1's signal.

AR 6-5-1-III also states that if B5 signals for a fair catch on a free kick, but then muffs the kick and recovers, the ball is placed at the spot of the recovery and not the 25 since it was not a fair catch.

I agree that it was done correctly, unless there's something else I'm missing.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant under Fed rules, since a free kick fair catch is put in play next at the spot of the fair catch, regardless of where it occurred.

I think the closest you'll find is this, you have to piece together a couple of rules:
6-5-3a:  A catch after an invalid signal is not a fair catch, and the ball is dead where caught or recovered.

definition of invalid signal:
2-8-3: An invalid signal is any waving signal by a player of Team B:
a. That does not meet the requirements of Article 2.

Article 2: A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signaled their intention by extending one hand only clearly above their head and waving that hand from side to side of their body more than once.

That's as close as there is to stating that B11 can't signal on behalf of B13 and still get the benefits of a fair catch.

On the Minnesota one, the only thing I disagreed with, was Reggie Smith saying is was the get away signal that was the invalid FC signal - he implied that all get away signals are invalid FC signals; they're not, just if you wave your arm a little higher than normal where it could be interpreted as a FC signal.

[Legacy Zebra]

In NCAA ANY waving signal is a signal. It doesn’t matter what height is at. Any waving motion that does not meet the criteria for a valid fair catch signal is an invalid signal. Players can point below the shoulder, but only if there is no waving motion. See AR 2-8-3-1.

As far as the Alabama Tennessee play, AR 6-5-3-VI (b) is this play. The player who signals must be the one to catch the ball for Team B to get the ball at the 25.

[NVFOA_Ump]

On the Minnesota one, the only thing I disagreed with, was Reggie Smith saying is was the get away signal that was the invalid FC signal - he implied that all get away signals are invalid FC signals; they're not, just if you wave your arm a little higher than normal where it could be interpreted as a FC signal.

Actually that's not correct.  NCAA Rule 2 definitions of Invalid Fair Catch signal specifically state "An invalid signal is any waving signal by a player of Team B"

[Kalle]

Is there a reason why this thread should not be moved to the NCAA forum? I see only NCAA specific discussion.

[sczeebra]

The only reason that I started this thread was to ask for everyone's opinion on whether or not one could construe the motion given in the Tennessee game an act worthy of being called an invalid signal. I called a game a few weeks ago where we had a similar situation and we let the play continue. I know the rule states that (any) signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered : a. That does not meet the  requirements of a valid signal equals an invalid signal but come on, these are High School kids. I mean if a kid points at his teammate and yells it's your ball are we going to shut the play down and flag it? Opinions?

[NVFOA_Ump]

The only reason that I started this thread was to ask for everyone's opinion on whether or not one could construe the motion given in the Tennessee game an act worthy of being called an invalid signal. I called a game a few weeks ago where we had a similar situation and we let the play continue. I know the rule states that (any) signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered : a. That does not meet the  requirements of a valid signal equals an invalid signal but come on, these are High School kids. I mean if a kid points at his teammate and yells it's your ball are we going to shut the play down and flag it? Opinions?

Yes, we kill it because there is no ambiguity in the NFHS rule here.  We are not allowed to make a judgment call here and both teams should know this one.  Any waving of arms will result in the ball being dead when possessed by R.

[sczeebra]

If you watch the play in question, number 3 for Tennessee never waves his arms he just holds them out from his sides which is very similar to what happened in our game.

[dammitbobby]

Actually that's not correct.  NCAA Rule 2 definitions of Invalid Fair Catch signal specifically state "An invalid signal is any waving signal by a player of Team B"

Thank you (and LegacyZebra) for correcting me.

Is this something that at the HS level we give a little latitude on?  I am positive I have seen players sweeping their arms out (similar to incomplete pass) in a gesture meant to convey 'get away' and depending on how you define 'waving signal' that might/might not not be considered waving. 

To quote a past president, 'I guess it depends on what the definition of is, is.'

[TampaSteve]

Here's the rub.
for AT LEAST 10yr, it's been seen at NFL level the receiver to give the "safe" signal - which to them is the 'get away' signal.  This is an invalid fair catch signal.
Obviously this trickled down to NCAA and we've seen this exact thing is most every NCAA game the past 10yr....yet no calls on this that I remember...
Ditto for HS. they started doing it too, but no calls. discussed at the assn but really no action with the mindset that "well, R never picks it up so the invalid signal isnt duping anyone so let it ride. if R grabs it and runs after giving it, flag it."

***Personally, for NCAA the "safe" (get away) signal is obviously an invalid signal, and if R is not grabbing the ball and taking off...no harm, no foul.
(I'm not an NCAA official, so maybe I don't know anything to begin with)

Unless the NCAA sent a memo out that they want this to stop, I'm confused that we're clearly seen invalid fair catch signals for at least 10yr yet it hasn't been called and all of a sudden it's been called twice.
I never saw the TN  call, but did see the IA call. - I really did not see much which would warrent a flag, but what I saw wasn't a great replay....

[Legacy Zebra]

I think this is the biggest thing people are missing on this issue. There’s nothing to “call”. It’s not a foul to give an invalid signal. The only thing it does is kill the play if Team B catches or recovers the kick. So, yes, there are a lot of invalid signals given in NCAA. But they are ultimately meaningless 99% of the time because Team B never possesses the ball. Which makes sense because the whole point of the signal that’s being given is to tell their teammates to get away from the ball.

[CalhounLJ]

I think this is the biggest thing people are missing on this issue. There’s nothing to “call”. It’s not a foul to give an invalid signal. The only thing it does is kill the play if Team B catches or recovers the kick. So, yes, there are a lot of invalid signals given in NCAA. But they are ultimately meaningless 99% of the time because Team B never possesses the ball. Which makes sense because the whole point of the signal that’s being given is to tell their teammates to get away from the ball.

I'm assuming you are talking NCAA here, because an invalid fair catch is a foul in NFHS. 5yd penalty.

[ilyazhito]

The question is why the flag exists in NFHS. I have not called an invalid fair catch, nor have I seen it called. I have also not seen any guidance from any of the state interpreters in my area on how to call it, either.

[CalhounLJ]

The question is why the flag exists in NFHS. I have not called an invalid fair catch, nor have I seen it called. I have also not seen any guidance from any of the state interpreters in my area on how to call it, either.

It’s actually a safety related issue. FED wants to make sure a fair catch signal is clear to the oncoming rushers. So they came up with a foul for a signal that’s not clear.
FWIW, I’ve never called one either.

[Legacy Zebra]

I'm assuming you are talking NCAA here, because an invalid fair catch is a foul in NFHS. 5yd penalty.

Yes. The poster was discussing the Iowa-Minnesota play and why it seems like it happens a lot, but was only “called” recently.