Excessive Celebration ??

[JugglingReferee]

I don't think I'd have flagged this, but on the other hand, I don't particularly disagree with it either.

The fact that the flag hit the player seems incidental to me as the flag comes down from a very high angle, and the player was at the time walking towards the official. If the player had stayed where he was, the flag wouldn't have hit him, so claiming that the official threw the flag 'at him' is a bit unjust in my opinion.

Even if it this true, the official doesn't need to hoist his flag a mile into the air.  There's no reason to mark spot of foul, so keep the flag away from the situation.

[Mike L]

So in all these years the NFHS has never addressed this specifically?  I can't believe this is the first time a kid did something like this.  As I mentioned earlier, the NCAA already dealt with this and came to a good resolution IMHO

Probably will be addressed now or in the near future, much like NCAA probably dealt with it after an incident just like this got a lot of publicity.

As for this call, I'm reminded of something my 1st year instructor (a much better official than I will ever be) always says. "Is that a call you want to hang your hat on?"

[TexDoc]

If an official threw this flag on my crew, and I happened to see what transpired, we are waving it off.  No way you flag this.

[Mark Liggett]

(S13)     

[gsrc]

I see it as drawing attention to someone greater than ones self.

While you are correct, what if a player knelt, faced Mecca, and bowed down once? Would that still not be penalized? The act is still the same, giving glory to a Deity greater than one's self.

[TXMike]

A Muslim "prayer" requires much more than that.  It would require so much that it wopuld move into the "prolonged" category and be illegal. If they did as you say that would be a mocking and worthy of a flag

[lawdog]

Does the Fed rule require us to determine the reason he made the prolonged act?  I don't think so.  I don't know if this kid is actually praying or if he's just showboating.  This is a textbook flag and I'm as religious as the next guy but this is just not needed on the field.  God has more to do than make you score a TD kid, go praise him on the sideline instead of showboating in the endzone.

[TXMike]

If it is so "textbook" of a foul, why was he not flagged before and why are so many fed guys here and on other forums saying otherwise?

[saofficial(aust)]

It should be as simple as:
1. Score legally
2. Give the ball back
3. Spontaneous celebration
4. Be respectful to the opponents you just got in their endzone, remember it is theirs not yours.

While we dont get that technical in Australia I wouldn't throw a flag over here on it but it would depend on if it was becoming a problem in respect of the points above. I don't see it delaying the game really but I wouldn't want to see it as I dont think it is respectful to the game as an individual when it is a team effort, but is that such a crime.
Did the officials identify this as a problem? Then tell the coach or get the BJ over there quick smart and get the ball before he kneels so that it interupts his pattern. Do it everytime he scores and it may not become a pattern. Sometimes we have that teaching role before a flag comes out.

And as to kicking yourself 30 secs later? Yep many a time we question ourselves and then decide it could have been wrong. But hey that is the nature of the game. Would love to say stuff to players and coaches for their stuff up but tell me mine loudly may draw a flag as I am not permitted that luxury to criticise.

[gsrc]

If it is so "textbook" of a foul, why was he not flagged before and why are so many fed guys here and on other forums saying otherwise?

My opinion is that some people are allowing their religious beliefs impact their judgment.

[JugglingReferee]

Here's a situation:

You call for captains and you see a player from a team praying over on the sideline.

You have to delay the coin toss because that player is still praying and is a captain.  If necessary, his teammates say that they cannot make a choice because that player is the speaking captain.

[saofficial(aust)]

Good question.
Speaking captain or not the kick off time is the kick off time and should not be held up for smoko, religion or even a wee break. If he isnt out there with the rest of them on time then too bad. It has nothing to do with faith or other of these things but rather organisation and time tabling of events. That is part of the rules of the game and for us to manage the game.

[TXMike]

Here's a situation:

You call for captains and you see a player from a team praying over on the sideline.

You have to delay the coin toss because that player is still praying and is a captain.  If necessary, his teammates say that they cannot make a choice because that player is the speaking captain.

If it will "delay" him as "much" as this action in the end zone "delayed" things, I think I can get over it.

[TxSkyBolt]

Even if you took it to point to God, the player is still drawing attention to himself in my opinion.

I'm not sure how the FED rule reads, but the NCAA rule says that the act must be a "...delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player (or players) attempts to focus attention upon himself (or themselves)."

This wouldn't fit the bill in our code.

Best regards,

Brad

[TxSkyBolt]

My opinion is that some people are allowing their religious beliefs impact their judgment.

Guilty (daily) your Honor

[James]

We had this discussion in summer too, with someone using a #1 signal - then trying to talk it away as praising the Lord.
Seems to me that it does not have to be instantaneous. That prayer or praise can be on the sideline or in the team zone, or before bed that night. He is drawing attention to himself.

I have also been told I am too harsh about celebration penalties and need to lighten up - which I am trying to do. I would have given him a warning.

[TXMike]

James - You use NCAA rules   Have you read Redding's memo on unsportsmanlike conduct?

[TXMike]

The state association has spoken

WIAA Statement Regarding 2A Semifinal Penalty
12/2/2010

Reports of a ‘high school football player penalized for praying’ in the end zone following a touchdown have greatly exaggerated an official’s call and taken it out of context.  During last Monday’s 2A state semifinal game, a player dropped to one knee and pointed skyward following a touchdown. 
 
Based on national playing rule (NFHS 9-5.C) the referee considered the gesture ‘an excessive or prolonged act during which the player drew attention to himself’.   That was the basis of the penalty with no inference to religion or a player’s right to offer a personal reflection of thanks for performing well. 
 
While the official’s judgment was based on a national federation rule, the WIAA will continue to work with the Washington Officials Association to ensure consistent, enforcement and interpretations of playing rules for future contests.

--Mike Colbrese, WIAA Executive Director

[gsrc]

The state association has spoken

WIAA Statement Regarding 2A Semifinal Penalty
12/2/2010

Reports of a high school football player penalizedprayingying’ in the end zone following a touchdown have greatly exaggerated an official’s call and taken it out of context.  During last Monday’s 2A state semifinal game, a player dropped to one knee and pointed skyward following a touchdown.  
 
Based on national playing rule (NFHS 9-5.C) the referee considered the gesture ‘an excessive or prolonged act during which the player drew attention to himself’.   That was the basis of the penalty with no inference to religion or a player’s right to offer a personal reflection of thanks for performing well.  
 
While the official’s judgment was based on a national federation rule, the WIAA will continue to work with the Washington Officials Association to ensure consistent, enforcement and interpretations of playing rules for future contests.

--Mike Colbrese, WIAA Executive Director

So this doesn't tell us anything. Either they are going to work with them to make sure it doesn't get called or it gets called every time.

This is probably going to be my last post in this thread because we aren't going to change anyone's opinions, and I hate added countless what-ifs (sorry, I am around 6th and 7th graders all day so they must be influencing me), but what if the player points to the sky at the 3 yard line, scores, continues to point and drop to a knee? Still no call?

If you score and want to thank God for giving you the ability to score a TD (and I agree with the other poster that He probably has more important things going on) then do it on the sideline or the team box. I also agree with the poster earlier that a warning should have occured first prior to the flag.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

I am obviously in the minority here but I think that's a call that is correct. It fits the "drawing attention to ones self" part of the excessive celebration rule. You want to get on a knee and point to the heavens, do it in the team box.

Let the blasting begin....

He just scored a touchdown, attention is already on him. by kneeling, and then pointing skyward, he is prolonging that attention on himself. (The fact that he is doing so in a religious manner, to me, doesn't change that).

I think He would understand if you waited the 30 seconds or so it took to get off the field to kneel and thank Him.

Religion is always a tricky subject, but by allowing one type of religious act, we open the door for any number of cases- "In my religion, we praise Him by lying on the ground making snow angels".

That being said, it did not seem like that big a deal. But there is very little context on which to judge it. Had this type of act been discussed previously? Were there other factors involved, such as previous celebrations, the emotions of the game, etc.?

In that official's judgment at that time, in the context of that game, the act rose to the level of a foul. Others may not agree. With the evidence I have, it's hard to fault the official for making the call- or frankly not making the call if it he had not.

I probably would not have flagged it the first time it occurred, but would have made it known that it should not happen again to prevent an escalation of who can be the most pious.

[Chester]

Here's a situation:

You call for captains and you see a player from a team praying over on the sideline.

You have to delay the coin toss because that player is still praying and is a captain.  If necessary, his teammates say that they cannot make a choice because that player is the speaking captain.

Do you remember in the movie Hoosiers when Strap grabbed Ollie's hand and said a prayer before he shot his free-throws and Coach Dale said, "make it a good one Strap."  That held up the game for a second or two.  Is that a technial foul? 

[bama_stripes]

The fact that the flag hit the player seems incidental to me as the flag comes down from a very high angle, and the player was at the time walking towards the official. If the player had stayed where he was, the flag wouldn't have hit him, so claiming that the official threw the flag 'at him' is a bit unjust in my opinion.

Really?  That flag should either be dropped on the ground at the covering official's feet, or tossed directly above the covering official's head (depending on your supervisor's preference).  There's no need whatsoever for an overhand toss on this play.

[Cooter]

Does the Fed rule require us to determine the reason he made the prolonged act?  I don't think so. 

I would disagree - every clinic I have attended, every rules book I have read state that we, as officials, should recognize the INTENT of the rule - and not be overly TECHNICAL.  I don't feel the intent of this rule (USC) was for a 2 second delay which did not involve an opposing team or prolonged celebration and involved a short act that by most standards is not offensive.  My crew does not flag the "jump and bump" that most players are into if it happens spontaniously and quickly - and even in those cases where it looks like it is getting a little overboard, we warn them - and the coach - before the laundry comes out. 

[AlUpstateNY]

He just scored a touchdown, attention is already on him. by kneeling, and then pointing skyward, he is prolonging that attention on himself. (The fact that he is doing so in a religious manner, to me, doesn't change that).  I think He would understand if you waited the 30 seconds or so it took to get off the field to kneel and thank Him.  Religion is always a tricky subject, but by allowing one type of religious act, we open the door for any number of cases- "In my religion, we praise Him by lying on the ground making snow angels".
That being said, it did not seem like that big a deal. But there is very little context on which to judge it. Had this type of act been discussed previously? Were there other factors involved, such as previous celebrations, the emotions of the game, etc.?

In that official's judgment at that time, in the context of that game, the act rose to the level of a foul. Others may not agree. With the evidence I have, it's hard to fault the official for making the call- or frankly not making the call if it he had not. I probably would not have flagged it the first time it occurred, but would have made it known that it should not happen again to prevent an escalation of who can be the most pious.

A reasonably considered, well said assessment and conclusion.  Trying to turn this into a "Religious Expressiuon" argument is absolute nonsense.  Without understanding the overall context of this situation, rather than this snippet alone is throwing this official under the nearest bus.

Where and how he threw his flag is nit-picking to the Nth degree.

[TXMike]

A wise official often tells me that "appearances are everything".  And suggesting that a flag not be thrown AT a player is very much about appearances.  No matter what our intent was , those who are watching see the results.  And if it looks bad, as this did, it IS bad.