App State/Troy: No UNS on this??

[zebrastripes]

Are you f’n serious? The lack of a unsportsmanlike conduct foul on Sumrall is embarrassing for those wings.

Whether or not the facemask foul was missed (it wasn't, that's a correct no-call for no twist or pull), I just cannot believe no one had the stones to penalize this coach's actions.

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[NVFOA_Ump]

May not have been a facemask but in my game ANY hands thru the face mask at eye level is getting my PF flag.  Maybe the wings saw the foul and felt it best to let the coach have his tantrum?  IMHO this one was a bad miss.

[Grant - AR]

May not have been a facemask but in my game ANY hands thru the face mask at eye level is getting my PF flag. 

If it wasn't a facemask foul, why would you call it?  If there's no twist, turn, etc., there is no foul and we should let it go.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If it wasn't a facemask foul, why would you call it?  If there's no twist, turn, etc., there is no foul and we should let it go.

It is absolutely a facemask foul, but he didn't grab the facemask.  He's got the inside of the helmet opening above the facemask and right at the eye level.  The head IMMEDIATELY snaps right and down before release. IMHO this is obvious and a facemask foul 100% of the time.

[zebrastripes]

May not have been a facemask but in my game ANY hands thru the face mask at eye level is getting my PF flag.  Maybe the wings saw the foul and felt it best to let the coach have his tantrum?  IMHO this one was a bad miss.

If the wings saw the (in your opinion) foul and thought it was a foul, why wouldn’t they throw the flag?

If they didn’t see or didn’t think there was a foul, why wouldn’t you flag the coach?

[NVFOA_Ump]

If the wings saw the (in your opinion) foul and thought it was a foul, why wouldn’t they throw the flag?

If they didn’t see or didn’t think there was a foul, why wouldn’t you flag the coach?

Real simple.  Somebody saw it and let the rest of the crew know and they decided to let the coach vent.  This was clearly a miss.

[zebrastripes]

Real simple.  Somebody saw it and let the rest of the crew know and they decided to let the coach vent.  This was clearly a miss.

If somebody saw it and didn’t call it they are just as culpable as the officials who were right on top of it.

I would be furious if one of my partners saw a foul, didn’t call it, and brought that information back to the locker room.

[Ralph Damren]

I'm glad we've kept the 5-yard version !! A few years ago ,there was a movement to remove it. A member asked for someone to explain the  'incidental' face mask. I responded:

(1) Let's pretend that you are unknowingly dating a hermaphrodite;
(2) On your 3rd date - you are a gentleman - you reach down 'her' skirt;
(3) You grab  something you know you shouldn't be grabbing  and quickly let go  ;
(4) that's sorta' like the 5-yard face mask.  .

EPILOGUE :NFHS still has the 5-yard face mask 

[Derek Teigen]

Hi Ralph, I agree with you and I actually called a 5 yard face mask version this year.  In the play that is referenced in this post I agree that the a facemask should have been called and also an unsportsmanlike on the coach for running onto the field.  My white hat would be furious if I (as a wing) allowed that to happen.

[Ralph Damren]

Yo,Derek- I agree that, in the 5 yard world. that was a foul A  called = a  A coach. Sometime in my murky past, I called a runner out at the plate on a 'bang-bang'. The ruuner's coach went into a  . Between innings the rookie base ump had a  .

HE:" Why did you let him get away with as much as he did  ?"


ME: "Because he may have been RIGHT  "

I think we all may accept a little more steam IF we feel so.....

[dammitbobby]

I'm sure I'm the minority here, but I'm not flagging this coach, if I'm the wing. Yes he came out onto the field (after the play) - a total of maybe 1.5- 2 yards, if that. He's also very, very upset about something.*  If we're going to flag him for being on the field, it's going to have to a lot more on the field than that for me personally - he didn't get in the wing's face, he had someone actively working to restrain him, and he can rant and rave all he wants - behind me. Now if it continues into the next play or three, I'll tell him that's enough, I heard you, and we escalate from there.


*While it in no way excuses him, it does provide context that he's not just jawing at the wing to be a turd butt or to get under his skin. Several times, where I've  in a similar situation where the coach is very upset and I have no idea why, I'll straight up ask them, what did you see?  And then they tell me, and if it's something I should have seen, I own it, if I know I didn't see it - 'Coach I just didn't see what you saw'.  If it's something I wouldn't have been likely to see, I'll tell him I'll let X or Y official know what he (thinks he) saw, and that usually helps defuse the situation a little. Maybe D1 is different (actually, almost certainly so) but refusing to acknowledge him I don't think helped the situation.

[ncwingman]

Recently, I've been working the chain crew for our local D-I college and my observations on the sideline have lead me to one simple conclusion:

In order for a head coach to receive an UNS, his actions would have to be so outrageous that a player would be ejected for doing the same.

That's obviously a slight exaggeration, but not by a whole lot. Is that right or by the book? Absolutely not, but it's clear it's how they want it enforced. The wing that throws that flag will not be working many more games for that league. I understand the rationale behind letting the coach vent, but there's just no upper limit that's enforced.

[zebrastripes]

Sideline management and behavior has been a major POE by the NCAA in the last few years. A couple years ago they made clear that any time a coach enters the field to argue an officiating decision he  shall immediately be flagged. I saw coaches get flagged for less than what Sumrall did this past season, so the notion that “the wing would get fired if he flagged the coach” is a copout for not doing his job.

[Joe Stack]

The problem with not flagging this at the higher levels and saying, "we don't flag this at the D1 (or whatever) levels" is that it all filters down to the lower levels at some point. Then, others are forced to deal with it there. Plus, I've always been bothered by the idea that an official is doing "his job" or "a good job" by ignoring obviously illegal actions with the justification that "there shouldn't be a flag (or penalty) there." Why not?

I've always been a big proponent of discretion and unfair advantage judgments in multiple sports, but this has nothing to do with either.

[AlUpstateNY]

Sideline management and behavior has been a major POE by the NCAA in the last few years. A couple years ago they made clear that any time a coach enters the field to argue an officiating decision he  shall immediately be flagged. I saw coaches get flagged for less than what Sumrall did this past season, so the notion that “the wing would get fired if he flagged the coach” is a copout for not doing his job.

"Sideline Management (decorum & control) can be an issue at every level.  If  "WE" don't manage it, we'll be subject to it.  Most "excitable" situations are best quickly & clearly "toned down.  That process can begin with a "look", followed by a subtle pointing back to the sideline, and/or when necessary a signal of willingness to address the concern patiently & appropriately (without dramatics), 

Fortunately, just like excitement, patience & calmness can also be contagious.  When a proper calm, interested reaction doesn't immediately work, suggesting, in an equally calm & direct tone, "Coach, please, don't force me to do something I don't want to do" can inject calmness into further discussion, when conveyed clearly, calmly & directly can lower the temperature for further discussion.

If it fails, it serves as a distinct warning of what further "argument" can produce.  Then it's up to the Coach what happens next, further calm discussion of his perceived grievance, or the possibility of a hammer. yet to be defined.

[zebrastripes]

I realize this is a different sport, but in my NCAA basketball games I would face far more repercussions for NOT penalizing this behavior than I would for penalizing it.

Coach comes onto the field or court to demonstratively protest a call or no-call, he is getting a UNS or technical foul without me thinking twice about it.

[AlUpstateNY]

I realize this is a different sport, but in my NCAA basketball games I would face far more repercussions for NOT penalizing this behavior than I would for penalizing it.

Coach comes onto the field or court to demonstratively protest a call or no-call, he is getting a UNS or technical foul without me thinking twice about it.

Basketball is played on a much smaller, and more intimate playing surface, calling for it's own response.

[AlUpstateNY]

I realize this is a different sport, but in my NCAA basketball games I would face far more repercussions for NOT penalizing this behavior than I would for penalizing it.

Coach comes onto the field or court to demonstratively protest a call or no-call, he is getting a UNS or technical foul without me thinking twice about it.