Joint possession question

[goodgrr]

I saw this in the Broncos and Bengals game on Monday night.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap3000000448391/Wk-16-Can-t-Miss-Play-Nelson-muscles-up-for-the-pick

Raised a few questions for me that I thought I'd share for some opinions here.

If this was an NCAA game, what do you think you would have ruled?
Would it/should it matter if the players hadn't of gone to the ground or had remained on the feet (thinking here of process of the catch and surviving the ground).  Was that even in play once they'd taken the 6/7 steps together fighting for it?

Replay said confirmed not stands so they decided it was clear interception.

[FLbackjudge]

I don't see this as a question of joint possession.  It looks to me as if the Bronco receiver had the ball in his grasp and it was wrestled away from him by the Bengal defensive back.  The DB has possession in the field of play before he goes out of bounds so it's an interception (if you don't believe the receiver ever possessed it) or a fumble with recovery by the defense (if the receiver possessed it and lost it to the DB).  Either way, it's Bengal's ball.  I would rule the same in NCAA.

[goodgrr]

I don't see this as a question of joint possession.  It looks to me as if the Bronco receiver had the ball in his grasp and it was wrestled away from him by the Bengal defensive back.

If that was the case (which I also believe) then why wouldn't it be ruled dead at the 27 with the receiver's forward progress stopped?
 

[BrendanP]

From the camera angle right there on the sideline, it looks like the Cincy player did establish possession of the ball with both feet in bounds. First down Cincinnati.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I don't see this as a question of joint possession.  It looks to me as if the Bronco receiver had the ball in his grasp and it was wrestled away from him by the Bengal defensive back. .....

Actually, the slow motion replay about halfway into the clip shows that the Bengal DB had possession from the very beginning of the catch.  Denver player is fighting to get his hands on the ball but never really succeeds until players are OB when it doesn't really matter.  I don't see either joint possession or forward progress being part of this play - IMO it's a simple interception by the defender.

[goodgrr]

I Believe Thomas had firm possession of the ball, so much so that he spins Nelson around off his feet.  Without 'control' there is no way that Nelson would remain attached and it's his centrifugal force that gives the ball to Nelson as a result of the spin.

To illustrate the point, this Picture in the link is half way through the spin

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c65452m8fdwc749/jp.jpg?dl=0

[Rulesman]

One single picture is not going to illustrate anything you can hang your hat on.

[goodgrr]

One single picture is not going to illustrate anything you can hang your hat on.

I wasn't intending it to prove the case more to illustrate the point I was trying to make about the control already having been established.

[Rulesman]

One single picture still won't do that - one way or the other.

[bossman72]

Interception for me.  Never looked like the offensive guy had a good grip on the ball, so I'm giving this to the defense

[bkdow]

at one moment you can see that the offensive player only had one hand on the ball.  Interception in my book.

[Ralph Damren]

In NFHS, if I had to show my guys a simultaneous catch, I would show them this.

[goodgrr]

at one moment you can see that the offensive player only had one hand on the ball.  Interception in my book.

Are we now saying that you can only have possession/control if you have two hands on the ball?

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, in frame by frame, one may be able to detect in what order the four hands grab the ball. IMHO, it certainly resembles the simultaneous catch I've seen in my coloring book.

In my lifetime as a ( since 1969), I've seen a simultaneous catch as often as I've seen Haley's Comet (once) while on Planet Earth as a human.