2023 Editorial Change that isn't highlighted.

[Zap]

2023 Book Page FR-87:
d. The try ends when:
1. Either team scores.
2. The ball is dead by rule (A.R. 8-3-2-IV and VI).
3. An accepted penalty results in a score.
4. A Team A loss-of-down penalty is accepted (Rule 8-3-3-c-2).
5. A Team A player fumbles and the ball is caught or recovered by any
Team A player other than the fumbler. There is no Team A score (A.R.
8-3-2-VIII).

2022 Book Page FR-87:
d. The try ends when:
1. Either team scores.
2. The ball is dead by rule (A.R. 8-3-2-IV and VI).
3. An accepted penalty results in a score.
4. A Team A loss-of-down penalty is accepted (Rule 8-3-3-c-2).
5. Before a change of team possession, a Team A player fumbles and
the ball is caught or recovered by any Team A player other than the
fumbler. There is no Team A score (A.R. 8-3-2-VIII).

[ElvisLives]

2023 Book Page FR-87:
d. The try ends when:
1. Either team scores.
2. The ball is dead by rule (A.R. 8-3-2-IV and VI).
3. An accepted penalty results in a score.
4. A Team A loss-of-down penalty is accepted (Rule 8-3-3-c-2).
5. A Team A player fumbles and the ball is caught or recovered by any
Team A player other than the fumbler. There is no Team A score (A.R.
8-3-2-VIII).

2022 Book Page FR-87:
d. The try ends when:
1. Either team scores.
2. The ball is dead by rule (A.R. 8-3-2-IV and VI).
3. An accepted penalty results in a score.
4. A Team A loss-of-down penalty is accepted (Rule 8-3-3-c-2).
5. Before a change of team possession, a Team A player fumbles and
the ball is caught or recovered by any Team A player other than the
fumbler. There is no Team A score (A.R. 8-3-2-VIII).

That makes sense. The 4th down/Try fumble rule was intended to prevent deliberate fumbles by Team A to advance the ball beyond the line-to-gain (regular scrimmage) or put the ball into B’s end zone (regular scrimmage or Try). While it still may be possible for either Team to similarly deliberately fumble following a change of team possession, the odds of it being planned, or of having a positive result are far less. So, this rule only applies prior to a change of team possession, so this is an appropriate editorial change.

[Zap]

The way I read it, only on Trys can Team A recover a Team B fumble and then if that Team A player fumbles and another Team A player recovers and tries to advance it would be dead.

Try from B-3. Team A’s pass is intercepted. During the return, B11 fumbles and the ball is recovered by A22. A22 subsequently fumbles and the ball is recovered at the B-10 by A33 who runs across the goal line.

On a Try the ball will be dead.

4/G B-3. Team A’s pass is intercepted. During the return, B11 fumbles and the ball is recovered by A22. A22 subsequently fumbles and the ball is recovered at the B-10 by A33 who runs across the goal line.

On 4th down this is legal.

[JasonTX]

The way I read it, only on Trys can Team A recover a Team B fumble and then if that Team A player fumbles and another Team A player recovers and tries to advance it would be dead.

Try from B-3. Team A’s pass is intercepted. During the return, B11 fumbles and the ball is recovered by A22. A22 subsequently fumbles and the ball is recovered at the B-10 by A33 who runs across the goal line.

On a Try the ball will be dead.

4/G B-3. Team A’s pass is intercepted. During the return, B11 fumbles and the ball is recovered by A22. A22 subsequently fumbles and the ball is recovered at the B-10 by A33 who runs across the goal line.

On 4th down this is legal.

Agreed but 4-1-3-j still has the language of 2022 for 4th down fumble rules on the try.  Which one is correct?

Ball Declared Dead

When, before a change of team possession on fourth down or a try, a Team
A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the fumbler.

[Zap]

Im going to guess that 4-1-3-j is an oversight as the change was listed in the Editorial Changes listed at the front of the book.

[Kalle]

Methinks this is a solution looking for a problem, how many of us have seen an "accidental" fumble after a double COP on a try? I'm hard pressed to remember if I've ever seen a double COP that would still be advanced.

[ElvisLives]

While Kalle is right that these situations would be highly, highly unlikely to happen, the possibility exists.
I misunderstood the original post, and had not read the list of editorial changes. It appears that somebody wanted to change the rule to further limit Team A's ability to catch/recover fumbles on Tries (only). Too bad they failed to follow up and edit all of the related rules and ARs to follow along. But, I am curious about what prompted this change. Did something like that happen last season? Did a team lose a game when a Team A player caught/recovered a teammates' fumble that occurred after a COP, and scored (on a Try)?

Curious. Personally, I think they are trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

[JasonTX]

I sent an email to Shaw to see what he says.

[ElvisLives]

I sent an email to Shaw to see what he says.

Hope you get an answer. He hasn’t responded to me in the past two years (three times).

Good luck.

[JasonTX]

Hope you get an answer. He hasn’t responded to me in the past two years (three times).

Good luck.

I haven't gotten a reply, but this scenario made its way onto the most recent SB Quiz.

1. 4/Goal @ B-3. A44 sweeps right end and fumbles at the B-2. B21 recovers at the B-1 and returns to
midfield and fumbles. A12 recovers at the B-48 and returns to the B-2 and fumbles the ball forward into
the end zone. A88 recovers while grounded in the end zone.

RULING: Touchdown for Team A. A, Try, B-3, No Clock.
The 4th down fumble rule (Rule 7-2-2-a Exception 2) is not in effect on this play because there has been a
change of team possession. The forward fumble by A12 is recovered in the end zone by A88 and results
in a touchdown (Rule 7-2-2-a).

2. Try @ B-3. A44 sweeps right end and fumbles at the B-2. B21 recovers at the B-1 and returns to
midfield and fumbles. A12 recovers at the B-48 and returns to the B-2 and fumbles the ball forward into
the end zone. A88 recovers while grounded in the end zone.

RULING: The try is over, no score. A, Free Kick, A-35, FK Rules.
The new editorial change for the 2023 season removes the requirement of “before a change of
possession” for a Team A fumble. Even though there has been a change of team possession on the play,
A12’s forward fumble into the end zone is recovered by teammate A88, there is no Team A score, and
the try is over (Rule 8-3-2-d-5).

[TXMike]

Late to the party as usual but this seems illogical. 4th and G from 3 and A can get 6 on a double COP by fumbles that ends with fumble recovery in EZ.  PAT from 3 and they cant have 2 points in a similar scenario.  Are we saying it is more likely A would aftempt a deliberate advance by fumble on a try knowing that even of B recovers , they will not be able to start a series like they would if deliberate fumble is on a regular scrimmage play?

[peterparsons]

I'm also wondering why, if this restriction applies to A after a COP, it doesn't apply equally to B?

[copedaddy]

I also sent a Question into Shaw via the RQ questions tab. I used that #2 question.

2. Try @ B-3. A44 sweeps right end and fumbles at the B-2. B21 recovers at the B-1 and returns to
midfield and fumbles. A12 recovers at the B-48 and returns to the B-2 and fumbles the ball forward into
the end zone. A88 recovers while grounded in the end zone.

My question was, if A cannot score on this play, shouldn't the ball be dead when recovered by A12 since he is not the original fumbler? And asked, is there anyway Team A can score on this play? (What if A44 recovers B21's fumble)

I have not gotten an answer either. But I am sure he is swamped by questions weekly.

[ElvisLives]

I also sent a Question into Shaw via the RQ questions tab. I used that #2 question.

2. Try @ B-3. A44 sweeps right end and fumbles at the B-2. B21 recovers at the B-1 and returns to
midfield and fumbles. A12 recovers at the B-48 and returns to the B-2 and fumbles the ball forward into
the end zone. A88 recovers while grounded in the end zone.

My question was, if A cannot score on this play, shouldn't the ball be dead when recovered by A12 since he is not the original fumbler? And asked, is there anyway Team A can score on this play? (What if A44 recovers B21's fumble)

I have not gotten an answer either. But I am sure he is swamped by questions weekly.

Cope,
The unfortunate fact is that the Try fumble rule is not written the same as the 4th down fumble rule. Deliberate? Unintended? I don't know, but I doubt it. The 4th down fumble rule is written very clearly. When a Team A player other than the original Team A fumbler catches or recovers the ball, the ball is dead, and is returned to the spot of the fumble, unless the spot of the catch/recovery is behind the spot of the fumble. With this rule, there is no way for Team A to score after a non-fumbler catches/recovers their own fumble. Sadly, the Try fumble rule does not, itself, mention whether the ball is dead, or not, when Team A's fumble is caught/recovered by a Team A player other than the fumbler. That does not make sense. Both rules should be written the same. There needs to be an editorial change.

Good news. 4-1-3-j tells us that the ball is dead on EITHER a fourth down or a try, when a Team A player other than the fumbler catches/recovers the ball. End of controversy, but the Try rule should read the same as the 4th down fumble rule. Anybody listening?

Regarding the possibility of Team A being able to score after they fumble, yes, it is possible (4th down or Try). If the most recent fumble was by Team A, and the fumbler catches/recovers the ball, then the ball remains alive, and he could advance across B's goal line and score.
However, if a Team A player other than the Team A fumbler catches/recovers the fumbled ball, then the ball is dead, and returned to the spot of the fumble (or behind) on 4th down, obviating any score. The Try rule tells us there is no Team A score under those same circumstances.

All of this is to keep Team A from intentionally fumbling the ball to their advantage. Why doesn't this apply to Team B? Because they haven't won a BIG game by doing so, yet. When they do, then we'll get a rule change to equalize the rules on these events.

The best news is that these are not my interpretations. They are the way the rules read. Shaw needs to address the difference in the rule languages, and/or equity in the rules for both teams. But, there is no question that the ball is dead when a Team A player other than the fumbler catches/recovers the ball, on 4th down, or a Try.

[copedaddy]

I got a reply for SS on this question. Here is his response to me.

Kelly -

You are correct, if a Team A player other than the fumbler recovers on the try the ball is declared dead and there is no score.  Rule 7-2-2-a Exception 2 (4th down fumble rule) states specifically that the ball is dead.  Rule 8-3-2-d states the try ends (so the ball is dead) in the list of 1 – 5.

 

Best of luck and let me know if you have questions.

 

Steve Shaw

CFO National Coordinator of Football Officials

Secretary-Rules Editor, NCAA Football Rules Committee

 

[JasonTX]

I got a reply for SS on this question. Here is his response to me.

Kelly -

You are correct, if a Team A player other than the fumbler recovers on the try the ball is declared dead and there is no score.  Rule 7-2-2-a Exception 2 (4th down fumble rule) states specifically that the ball is dead.  Rule 8-3-2-d states the try ends (so the ball is dead) in the list of 1 – 5.

 

Best of luck and let me know if you have questions.

 

Steve Shaw

CFO National Coordinator of Football Officials

Secretary-Rules Editor, NCAA Football Rules Committee

So basically, if this ever happens, we have to remember after all those multiple fumbles, that only A44, the very first fumbler, can score by team A.

[ElvisLives]

So basically, if this ever happens, we have to remember after all those multiple fumbles, that only A44, the very first fumbler, can score by team A.

I don’t think so, Jason. The editorial change only made the rule apply for the entire down, not just before a change of team possession. Whether Team A fumbles once or multiple times, the fumbler for any particular fumble can catch/recover his own fumble and advance - and potentially score. But, if any other player of Team A catches/recovers the fumble, the ball is dead at that point.

[JasonTX]

I don’t think so, Jason. The editorial change only made the rule apply for the entire down, not just before a change of team possession. Whether Team A fumbles once or multiple times, the fumbler for any particular fumble can catch/recover his own fumble and advance - and potentially score. But, if any other player of Team A catches/recovers the fumble, the ball is dead at that point.

Let me reword it.

On the Try, A44 takes the snap and runs.  He is hit and fumbles.  B10 recovers and runs for a bit and he gets hit a fumbles.  A44 recovers that fumble and runs it in for an apparent TD.  Does it count or not?

[TXMike]

I would rule that a score for A.  It is illogical to make that initial
Fumble apply after B has has possession.  I can comprehend making the rule apply to the next Team A fumble but seems it should start over with who the new fumbler is .

[ElvisLives]

Let me reword it.

On the Try, A44 takes the snap and runs.  He is hit and fumbles.  B10 recovers and runs for a bit and he gets hit a fumbles.  A44 recovers that fumble and runs it in for an apparent TD.  Does it count or not?

As I read the rules and the editorial change, yes. Actually, since B made the fumble in question, any Team A player could catch/recover and advance.