Backwards Pass Out of Bounds?

[sczeebra]

I know that in NFHS this pass is legal to conserve time. I was wondering about NCAA and the NFL.

[Snapper]

I know that in NFHS this pass is legal to conserve time. I was wondering about NCAA and the NFL.

In NCAA it’s 5 yds and LOD from spot of the foul.  This could also result in a 10 sec runoff situation if they do it under 1 minute in a half.

I don’t know for NFL.

[Derek Teigen]

But the ball is spotted where it goes out of bounds correct?  because it is really a loose ball fumble and not a pass at all.

[Kalle]

But the ball is spotted where it goes out of bounds correct?  because it is really a loose ball fumble and not a pass at all.

In NCAA? Yes, if the penalty is declined, the ball belongs to the passing team at the OOB spot (and this might sometimes be the better option). The penalty is from the spot of pass.

[Derek Teigen]

sorry Kalle I should have said high school rules and in the scenario I am thinking about the backwards pass landing 'out of bounds' so it does not contact the ground until the ball lands out of bounds.  In high school this is not an incomplete pass and we would spot the ball where the ball goes out bounds??

[ElvisLives]

But the ball is spotted where it goes out of bounds correct?  because it is really a loose ball fumble and not a pass at all.

EDIT: As Kalle, thought you were referencing NCAA. My reply is for NCAA. Can’t say what difference that makes.

It isn’t just semantics. This is a ball that is loose from a backward pass, and NOT a fumble. The reason it is important to make this distinction is the fact that, should the loose ball travel out of bounds IN ADVANCE of the spot of the pass (by bounding or being muffed), the dead-ball/succeeding spot is where the ball crossed the sideline. Even if the backward pass somehow goes OB in advance of the spot of the pass, the pass could still be illegal, if the R can tell without doubt that the passer threw the ball with the intent of it going OB to stop the game clock. If the R can not make that determination, no foul, and the dead-ball/succeeding spot is where the ball crossed the sideline, next down, clock on ready unless inside 2 mins in half.
If this was truly a fumble, with the ball traveling OB in advance of the spot of the fumble, the ball would be returned to the spot of the fumble, next down, and game clock would start on the ‘ready.’ except during the last 2 minutes of the 2nd/4th periods. Yeah, I knew better, just got in a bit of a hurry. Thanks, Snapper.

[Snapper]

EDIT: As Kalle, thought you were referencing NCAA. My reply is for NCAA. Can’t say what difference that makes.

It isn’t just semantics. This is a ball that is loose from a backward pass, and NOT a fumble. The reason it is important to make this distinction is the fact that, should the loose ball travel out of bounds IN ADVANCE of the spot of the pass (by bounding or being muffed), the dead-ball/succeeding spot is where the ball crossed the sideline. Even if the backward pass somehow goes OB in advance of the spot of the pass, the pass could still be illegal, if the R can tell without doubt that the passer threw the ball with the intent of it going OB to stop the game clock. If the R can not make that determination, no foul, and the dead-ball/succeeding spot is where the ball crossed the sideline, next down, clock on ready unless inside 2 mins in half.
If this was truly a fumble, with the ball traveling OB in advance of the spot of the fumble, the ball would be returned to the spot of the fumble, next down, and game clock would start on the ‘ready,’ except during the last 2 minutes of the 2nd/4th periods.

I think you misspoke when you typed that last sentence, as I know that you’re quite good on the rules.

If it was a fumble forward oob, then the clock would start on the Ready, regardless of the time left.  “Under 2 minutes” doesn’t apply to fumbles  forward oob.

[Snapper]

sorry Kalle I should have said high school rules and in the scenario I am thinking about the backwards pass landing 'out of bounds' so it does not contact the ground until the ball lands out of bounds.  In high school this is not an incomplete pass and we would spot the ball where the ball goes out bounds??

In Federation, yes, incomplete, legal FORWARD passes come back to the previous spot.  Whereas an incomplete backward pass that goes oob would be spotted where it went oob.

Although I would encourage you to know if it was a backward pass vs a fumble in Federation, I don’t believe that the Fed rules make many distinctions between the two.  Whereas, in NCAA, it can be very important, because they treat a backwards pass and a fumble very differently in some situations.

[Derek Teigen]

I know that in NFHS this pass is legal to conserve time. I was wondering about NCAA and the NFL.

I believe if a pass is intentionally thrown out of bounds 'behind' the line of scrimmage in an effort to conserve time this would actually be intentional grounding because the 'pass' did not cross the line of scrimmage.

[Snapper]

I believe if a pass is intentionally thrown out of bounds 'behind' the line of scrimmage in an effort to conserve time this would actually be intentional grounding because the 'pass' did not cross the line of scrimmage.

The original question was whether intentionally throwing a BACKWARD pass oob to conserve time is a foul or not.  It’s not for Fed, but it is for NCAA.

Intentional grounding is a type of illegal FORWARD pass.  It doesn’t apply to a backward pass.

[bama_stripes]

Under FED rules, both a backward pass and a fumble are treated the same — a loose ball that may be recovered and advanced by either team.  If such loose ball goes OOB, it belongs to the team last in possession at the OOB spot.