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General Discussion / Re: UFL
« Last post by Ralph Damren on Today at 06:18:16 AM »
Thanks, Maineac, for the update. I'll follow my pledge and try to watch at least one of their games. :thumbup I assume by your name that we are from the same state/tribe  8] .If so, if you aren't a fellow ootball official, you shoud consider joining as we (like the rest of the nation) are hurting for numbers.  yEs: It's a great hobby and one of the few where you get paid.
                                                                                                                             tiphat:
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General Discussion / Re: UFL
« Last post by Maineac on Yesterday at 07:41:07 PM »
Unanswered USFL questions:

(1) Are all games played in one city with teams baring far-away city names ?  ???
(2) Do all of the fans sit in the first rows on the same side of the stadiums ?  ???
(3)  Do the officials still wear adjustable hats ?  ???
(4) Do drones still fly thru pass patterns w/camaramen in both backfields ?   ???

If the answer to at least one of the above in 'NO' , I'll try to watch at least on game...after all it's still FOOTBALL tR:oLl

I caught a UFL game in Detroit at the beginning of April. It was a good time. Good sized crowd (small by NFL standards), $27 for a seat in the lower bowl of Ford Field at the 20 YL. Not bad. To answer the questions: 1) They play in the stadium of the home team, not designated fields like the USFL used to; 2) No. Both sides filled about half way up at the game I attended. 3) No on adjustable hats. They also don’t have piping on the hats. 4) No drones. But they did have the roving camera suspended over the field and plenty of mobile cameras.

Level of play was decent, pace of game was good. 64 yard FG from Michigan K was impressive. UFL provides a place to try out new rules, wouldn’t be surprised to see it turn into a G-League model for the NFL. I would definitely attend another.
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NCAA Discussion / Speaking of an unfair rule (IMHO)
« Last post by ElvisLives on Yesterday at 01:29:53 PM »
7-1-11 and 6-3-12

These are the “Illegal Return” rules, for Team A players on kicking downs. The rules say “…out of bounds…” and make no differentiation between at the sidelines or at the end lines. The entire boundary of the field.

OK. The rule is intended to keep players from running into team areas - particularly their own - where they can 1) nearly disappear, then reappear inbounds, unhindered, where they can recover the ball or make a tackle, and/or 2) use team personnel in those areas to prevent opposing players from hindering their movement down the field. (Note that it is illegal for a player to block an opponent when both are out of bounds, but it is legal for a player to block an opponent who is OB, if the blocker is not OB).

Occasionally, the ball, loose from a kick, can get into Team B’s end zone and remain alive. IMHO, in those cases, players (both teams) have only one thing in mind, and that is to recover the ball.  A Team A player that goes OB from the end zone ain’t hiding from anybody, and doesn’t (or certainly shouldn’t) have any persons in that area to ‘screen’ him from opponents. But, with current rules, if a Team A player were to run OB from the end zone, and then return inbounds, he commits a foul, even if he makes a great play to recover the ball (for a possible TD).

Never happen, you say? Well, around 2010, in the WAC, a team kicked off, and the ball bounced at the B-20, or so, and headed for the end zone, then glanced off the hands of a Team B player around the 8 yard line, and then went into the end zone. The ball continued toward the back of the end zone, and a Team A player, in hot pursuit, runs past the ball (which is now about 1 yard from the end line) then steps out of bounds with both feet, turns around, steps back into the end zone with both feet, and dives on the ball, to recover it (which he does). The crew on the field ruled TD. In his review of our games from the weekend, our coordinator reminded the staff that a Team A player that is OB voluntarily during a kick down may not return inbounds for the remainder of the down. Ouch. That is what is known as a catastrophic error (one in which score is awarded or denied incorrectly, or incorrect possession is awarded).
So, let’s stop and think about the fairness of this rule. First, we DO see a fair number of instances each season when the ball is touched by Team B before it touches the ground in B’s end zone, and the ball remains alive while in the end zone. Once the ball gets to the end zone, what function does this rule serve? IMHO, nothing. In fact, it takes away a great football play made by a Team A player in hustling to be in position to make such a play. I would like to see them change the rule to say, “…a player of Team A who goes OB between the goal lines during a legal kick play…” That would fix this problem. Yeah, a player going OB between the goal line and the B-20 would not likely be a secret, but, the goal line is a much more visible line of demarcation than a ‘plain’ yard line, and would seem to be a fair compromise with the current rule.

Just thinking about things, so I don’t have to think about work.  ;D
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Texas Topics / Re: PROP Approved Rules changes - now we wait for the UIL
« Last post by dammitbobby on Yesterday at 10:39:27 AM »
I've heard that the uniform proposal declined by the PROP committee will not be adopted by UIL this year. That's not official though but on good authority.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Curiously written rule (Replay)
« Last post by dammitbobby on Yesterday at 09:49:55 AM »
Thanks gents, those responses answer my questions perfectly. 
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Curiously written rule (Replay)
« Last post by Legacy Zebra on Yesterday at 09:16:23 AM »
The answer is in the sentence you ignored. A kick is one type of loose ball, but not the only type. If they wanted it limited to just the kick it would only say kick. Remember that a player who goes out of bounds during a kick play may not return during the entire down, no matter what happens after the kick.

4/10 @ A-20. Team A punts. During the kick, A88 goes out of bounds on his own. While A88 is out of bounds, B1 catches the punt at the 50, is hit at the A-45 and fumbles. While the ball is loose, A88 returns inbounds and recovers the fumble while grounded at the A-40. The on-field officials do not flag A88 and award Team A possession.

Because A88 touched a loose ball after illegally returning inbounds, that foul is reviewable. If A88 had not touched the ball it would not be reviewable.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Curiously written rule (Replay)
« Last post by ElvisLives on Yesterday at 09:04:32 AM »
So I've looked and looked and I can't find an answer to this question.

'A player touching or recovering a kick or loose ball who has been out of bounds and returned inbounds during the kick.'

Let's say that during this play, the kick ends, the returner fumbles, and the player who went OOB (foul) recovers the  ball. This specific provision only addresses situations where the play status is a kick (not going to list loose ball here because as Elvis pointed out, they're the same thing).

Does that prohibition end as the play status transitions to a running play? Or am I missing a sentence buried somewhere that extends this out to all touching and recovery during the down?

The rule under discussion is a Replay rule. The actual rules are 6-1-11 (Free Kicks) and 6-3-12 (Scrimmage Kicks). Those rules apply to the entire down. So, when a Team A player is out of bounds on his own, if he returns inbounds any time during the remainder of the down, he has committed a foul for an ‘illegal return.’ The replay rule simply gives the RO the authority to include the ‘illegal return’ element in his review, if he is, first, looking to determine if a player touched a loose ball after he returns inbounds.
Note 4 things:
1) His touching of the ball is no different than any other Team A player touching the ball. If it has not yet reached/crossed Team B’s restraining line, or been touched by Team B, on a free kick, the touching is illegal. If it HAS reached/crossed Team B’s restraining line/been touched by Team B, on a free kick, the touching is legal. But that is true for ANY player of Team A, whether they have been OB or not.
2) A free kick play begins when the ball is kicked, and ends when the ball comes into player possession or otherwise becomes dead.
3) A scrimmage kick play begins when the ball is snapped, and ends when the ball comes into player possession or otherwise becomes dead.
4) The illegal return rule applies for the entire down, not just during the kick play portion of the down. That’s why we need understand the difference between a ‘play’ and a ‘down.’ A down may contain several plays. (When the CFO sends out “Play Situations,” they are actually sending out “Down Situations.” But, I’ll never convince them to change their informal terminology.)

The fact that touching of a loose ball, or blocking of an opponent, or tackling of a BC, by a player that has returned illegally is no different than any other player doing those things would make them unremarkable, IMHO, and should not be required ‘triggers’ for the RO to consider the possibility of an illegal return.

But I’m not in charge.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Curiously written rule (Replay)
« Last post by dammitbobby on Yesterday at 08:24:35 AM »
So I've looked and looked and I can't find an answer to this question.

'A player touching or recovering a kick or loose ball who has been out of bounds and returned inbounds during the kick.'

Let's say that during this play, the kick ends, the returner fumbles, and the player who went OOB (foul) recovers the  ball. This specific provision only addresses situations where the play status is a kick (not going to list loose ball here because as Elvis pointed out, they're the same thing).

Does that prohibition end as the play status transitions to a running play? Or am I missing a sentence buried somewhere that extends this out to all touching and recovery during the down?
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Curiously written rule (Replay)
« Last post by ElvisLives on April 30, 2024, 08:58:31 PM »
The  rule is written convolutedly because they combined what should have been two sentences into one.


The touching isn’t actually the foul being reviewed, the illegal return is. A player going out of bounds during a kick and then returning is not reviewable on its own. It is only reviewable if that player subsequently touches or recovers the ball. That touching or recovery could be the kick itself or any subsequent loose ball, such as the returner fumbling the ball. Basically, an illegal return is not “important” enough to be reviewable normally, but if that illegal return ends up affecting the ball it creates enough of an advantage to warrant a review.

They should have just written “f. A Team A player illegally returning inbounds after being out of bounds during a kick. (Only reviewable if the player touches or recovers the kick or subsequent loose ball).”

I don’t like that answer, but I believe it. It makes sense, in its own non-sensical way. But, yeah, they need to ask us to vet the rule language! 😉
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Curiously written rule (Replay)
« Last post by Legacy Zebra on April 30, 2024, 07:25:03 PM »
The  rule is written convolutedly because they combined what should have been two sentences into one.


The touching isn’t actually the foul being reviewed, the illegal return is. A player going out of bounds during a kick and then returning is not reviewable on its own. It is only reviewable if that player subsequently touches or recovers the ball. That touching or recovery could be the kick itself or any subsequent loose ball, such as the returner fumbling the ball. Basically, an illegal return is not “important” enough to be reviewable normally, but if that illegal return ends up affecting the ball it creates enough of an advantage to warrant a review.

They should have just written “f. A Team A player illegally returning inbounds after being out of bounds during a kick. (Only reviewable if the player touches or recovers the kick or subsequent loose ball).”
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