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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Sumstine on July 07, 2014, 02:34:31 PM
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Can anyone verify this?
NFHS Officials Manual one of the little gray bars on Page 17 under "Use of the Microphone" heading says "may be announced" as in "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced."
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That is correct.
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Interesting. Previously, that was a big no-no.
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The manual says PERMITTED, not REQUIRED. The calling official should be getting the number on every foul. If you are going to announce it, just be sure you announce the right number.
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The manual says PERMITTED, not REQUIRED.
Just as long as it doesn't say PROHIBITED like it used to. :)
Here are my feelings on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_xjBAd5G84
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In Ohio, their manual says "numbers WILL be announced" that started in 2012
Just moved to Arizona so I am not sure about here, but I would guess we don't announce numbers.
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The general feeling was that coaches always want to know who the gulity party was and if you're using a mic that would be a good way of convaying it. The concern that would embrass the player was erased by the fact that basketball announces the player that fouled and often his number is posted upon the scoreboard for the frenzed masses. One of the "four Ws" of reporting a foul...WHO, what,when & where makes it important to identify the guilty P_S party.
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As long as you don't announce a penalty for "giving him the business"...
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xag52o_ben-dreith-best-referee-announcemen_sport
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D8aAC4jrPM&feature=kp
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We need a definition in Rule 2 for "Giving him the business".
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In Florida, we are not allowed to announce the number or position of a player who commits a foul.
Wireless Microphone: Use of a “wireless microphone” by the referee is permitted as follows: (a) The head coach of both teams must agree to the referee’s use of the system prior to the start of the game; (b) Only the type foul and the distance penalty may be announced by the referee; (c) A player’s name, position or number may never be announced; and (d) The information is not announced until after the captain has made his decision to accept or decline the penalty.
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It will be interesting to see if state manuals or recommendations change as a result of the new national mechanic manual. I don't see an issue with giving the number.
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According to our new mechanics manual, Tennessee is now requiring referees to announce the number of the offending player when using a microphone. We have moved away from Federation mechanics starting this year and have created our own set of mechanics as we transition to having more and more games using 7 man crews.
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An honest question, what is the benefit of "announcing" (in addition to advising the respective coach) of the identity of the player commiting a foul? I understand the remedial benefit potential of pointing out a violation to a coach in a position to reinfource correct behavior, but what (if anything, is the benefit of publicly identifying a student athlete's mistake to spectators in general?
I'm presuming it's a standard practices to identify the fouling player to THAT PLAYER's Coach. What does it add to the game, to publicise individual player mistakes?
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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xag52o_ben-dreith-best-referee-announcemen_sport
Eeesh, huge downgrade here. He started his announcement with "We have..."!
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I'm presuming it's a standard practices to identify the fouling player to THAT PLAYER's Coach. What does it add to the game, to publicise individual player mistakes?
Probably because they do it in NCAA and NFL. Not sure it adds the game but people expect it at the higher levels and these things tend to trickle down (Maybe Reagan was right ;D). Just think off black pants and wider stripes.
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An honest question, what is the benefit of "announcing" (in addition to advising the respective coach) of the identity of the player commiting a foul? I understand the remedial benefit potential of pointing out a violation to a coach in a position to reinfource correct behavior, but what (if anything, is the benefit of publicly identifying a student athlete's mistake to spectators in general?
I'm presuming it's a standard practices to identify the fouling player to THAT PLAYER's Coach. What does it add to the game, to publicise individual player mistakes?
Name one other sport that doesn't identify the player who "fouled" or otherwise committed a "violation" of a rule?
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Name one other sport that doesn't identify the player who "fouled" or otherwise committed a "violation" of a rule?
Do you remember your mother asking, "If Joey jumps off the roof does that mean you have to?". If there's no good reason why we should, then why should we?
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1. More and more games are televised these days, even if it's only on the internet. In addition, film is used even more to grade not only players, but officials. By making the announcement, it removes the guess work of trying to figure out where the foul was called. If the announcement is not made, announcers, (most of whom are even more amateur than those you see on major games), are going to guess at where the foul was. I would rather they KNOW than guess and make the situation even worse.
2. Coaches want to know for corrective purposes. If the call was made by a wing on the opposite side of the field, it may take a while to get it relayed back to the correct sideline.
3. If film is being used to grade and chose playoff officials (as it is more and more these days), then announcing the offender helps the process, removing guesswork on the part of the grader.
4. Side benefit, officials need to concentrate more in order to be able to report the number. "Don't know coach, only saw the hand on the jersey" will become a less accepted answer as time goes on. In the NFL, it is a downgrade if the official doesn't have the number of the fouler. I understand HS officials aren't NFL caliber, but they should strive to be, and that includes improving concentration. If you throw a flag, you had better know upon whom you are throwing it.
5. The main reason for not doing so before was not to "embarrass" the player. These are high school kids playing a competitive game. The embarrassment argument is so minor as to not even be an issue anymore. In basketball, their number is called out, and put on the scoreboard. We used to make them raise their hand! In soccer, we stand over them with a card. In lacrosse or hockey, their number is called AND we make them go sit by themselves for period of time. We say that the field is an extension of the classroom; well, in the classroom, if a student is acting out or doing something that disrupts the rest of the class, they are called out for it, by name. If a player can't take the "embarrassment" of having his number called when he fouls, if his self esteem is so damaged by having it pointed out that he was the fouler, then he's in the wrong game, with deeper issues than football can solve.
In short, there are a number of reasons for doing so, it brings football more in line with other high school sports, and there's no good reason for NOT doing it.
So sometimes, jumping off the roof because Joey is doing it is a good thing.
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"Do you remember your mother asking, "If Joey jumps off the roof does that mean you have to?". If there's no good reason why we should, then why should we?"
That is to keep you from doing something stupid. What difference does it make? Basketball, including NFHS, has done it for years. It aids in game administration if for no other reason. That isn't stupid. No need to shuttle info from one wing through the BJ or U to the other side with the chance to garble the communication.
Moms also say "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
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PA still says to not announce numbers. Truthfully, I don't think they have any idea the mechanic changed...
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Do you remember your mother asking, "If Joey jumps off the roof does that mean you have to?". If there's no good reason why we should, then why should we?
It's called communication. You didn't answer the question.
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Moms also say "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Well played!
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Moms also say "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Which is another solid example of why you should listen to your mother. Sorry but I'm still looking for a "GOOD" reason, that actually means something. So far I've been told;
They all do it on TV, at the upper levels.
For some reason, I should care that "they do it at other sports".
Coaches want to know, but a standard practice has long been to advise the Head Coach, directly. If it is taking too long, coach, consider patience is a virtue and both you, as well as the official getting the information to you, may be detained by something important.
Avoid garbling the information. Wouldn't just being a little more careful accomplish that?
"Maybe" film is being used to grade officials for post season. (You guys in Georgia really seem obsessed with post season assignments) Isn't it ALL, not supposed to be about us?
Somebody (Who?) expects it at higher levels, really?
The justification suggested for "embarrassing" the guilty players, is more a topic for "The View" or "Opra".
Apparently some believe, "In short, there are a number of reasons for doing so, it brings football more in line with other high school sports, and there's no good reason for NOT doing it.", although I haven't seen any presented here, and "everyone else is doing it" has never shown to be good excuse for doing much of anything, EVER.
Can someone answer the original question, I understand it gives Referee's an opportunity to control a new, and shiny, spotlight that promotes a moment of notoriety, but since the game has existed for somewhere near 100 years without this information being broadcast, what, if anything, has changed to make it so needed now? Change and progress is fine, when something is actually improved or enhanced, but we should all understand that change for change sake doesn't always turn out as expected, or advertised.
There's another "old" saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", although most times that was likely advice from your father.
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Al:
Better make sure those knickers are bleached, and the pea in your whistle isn't sticking.
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You haven't given a good reason not to do it. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is not a valid reason not to change things.
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Don't forget to pack the red flag and stirrups.
And he still hasn't answered the question! hEaDbAnG
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Where did I leave my 4 sided down marker on a stick? cRaZy
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...or the pylons that were attached to a spring that was stuck in the ground?
A few years from now we'll also be talking about the era when football was actually played on REAL, green grass.
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...or the pylons that were attached to a spring that was stuck in the ground? A few years from now we'll also be talking about the era when football was actually played on REAL, green grass.
Drifting back to the original question (An honest question, what is the benefit of "announcing" (in addition to advising the respective coach) of the identity of the player commiting a foul? I understand the remedial benefit potential of pointing out a violation to a coach in a position to reinfource correct behavior, but what (if anything, is the benefit of publicly identifying a student athlete's mistake to spectators in general?), and holding all the "Comedy Central" efforts aside mre the moment, can anyone provide an actually meaningful reason to bring identifying the fouling player, publicly, to the High School level?
One would think those advocating the change would be willing, and eventually able, to defend, and or explain, the necessity or benefit of the change they advocate. Good ideas often help to explain themselves, as evidenced by the practice of announcing fouls, and their enforcement penalties, which doing so, provided relevant, pertinent information to interested observers of the game.
Help me out here, can anyone offer a relevant advantage, benefit, necessity or ANY positive attribute derived from identifying, publicly, the student athlete who has fouled, and possibly hurt his team's chances for success?
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Drifting back to the original question (An honest question, what is the benefit of "announcing" (in addition to advising the respective coach) of the identity of the player commiting a foul? I understand the remedial benefit potential of pointing out a violation to a coach in a position to reinfource correct behavior, but what (if anything, is the benefit of publicly identifying a student athlete's mistake to spectators in general?), and holding all the "Comedy Central" efforts aside mre the moment, can anyone provide an actually meaningful reason to bring identifying the fouling player, publicly, to the High School level?
One would think those advocating the change would be willing, and eventually able, to defend, and or explain, the necessity or benefit of the change they advocate. Good ideas often help to explain themselves, as evidenced by the practice of announcing fouls, and their enforcement penalties, which doing so, provided relevant, pertinent information to interested observers of the game.
Help me out here, can anyone offer a relevant advantage, benefit, necessity or ANY positive attribute derived from identifying, publicly, the student athlete who has fouled, and possibly hurt his team's chances for success?
It is obvious you are not buying what everyone else is selling and I don't think anyone can say anything that will convince you this is a worthwhile thing to do. Some changes are just natural evolutions in the game and that's how I see this one. I never understood why we didn't announce them.
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I gave you 5 reasons, and your only stated objection is we might embarrass a player. Embarrassing a player is NOT a reason to avoid it, and the NFHS has realized the ridiculousness of that argument given other sports as well as the classroom.
To continue to use that as your only source of objection just reinforces your unwillingness to concede to evolution in the sport. Yes, we jokingly made fun of that with references to past officiating equipment and uniforms, but your continued obstinance is now just evidence that we should all just move on without you.
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What they said...
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I gave you 5 reasons, and your only stated objection is we might embarrass a player. Embarrassing a player is NOT a reason to avoid it, and the NFHS has realized the ridiculousness of that argument given other sports as well as the classroom.
To continue to use that as your only source of objection just reinforces your unwillingness to concede to evolution in the sport. Yes, we jokingly made fun of that with references to past officiating equipment and uniforms, but your continued obstinance is now just evidence that we should all just move on without you.
Actually, all you you gave me was 5 silly, inconsequential reasons to announce offending player's. I'm still waiting for something valid, something that provides some (any) benefit to anybody, other than Head Coaches, who should already be advised consistently who THEIR fouling player was, which often provides opportunity for additional detail as to what the player actually did, so they are already told who the fouling player was, albeit somewhat more discreetly.
Are you suggesting needlessly embarrassing a teenage student athlete is a GOOD THING? Does it serve some purpose, accomplish anything positive or add the slightest bit of value to ANY aspect of the game, or the event, but identify someone who made a costly mistake.
I'm all for reasonable "evolution of the game" if such evolution has a positive effect, improves something or even presents some previously unknown, or unseen value to the game. However when NONE of that is added, NOTHING worthwhile is even suggested and only silly reasons are provided to justify adding something, well maybe adding it (because they do it on TV) isn't really such a necessary, or justifyable idea.
Actually, I have nothing to do with "you moving on". That's entirely up to you. If announcing penalties is important to your advancement, that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself.
If you think singling out and identifying every player who makes a mistake, publicly to the crowd at a HS Football game, so the event can seem more like other levels, or other sports, that's on you. Personally, I just don't see anything of value, constructive or necessary in doing so. I only asked a question, "What is a benefit?", if you can demonstrate or explain an actual, real, positive benefit, I'll be happy to re-consider, until then I think it's an unnecessary and unpredictable expansion, that offers no positive result.
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I'm still waiting for something valid, something that provides some (any) benefit to anybody, other than Head Coaches, who should already be advised consistently who THEIR fouling player was, which often provides opportunity for additional detail as to what the player actually did, so they are already told who the fouling player was, albeit somewhat more discreetly.
In Ohio, their manual says "numbers WILL be announced" that started in 2012
Just moved to Arizona so I am not sure about here, but I would guess we don't announce numbers.
According to our new mechanics manual, Tennessee is now requiring referees to announce the number of the offending player when using a microphone. We have moved away from Federation mechanics starting this year and have created our own set of mechanics as we transition to having more and more games using 7 man crews.
There's a direct benefit to referees in Ohio and Tennessee, since their mechanics require them to announce the number.
deadhorse:
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Actually, all you you gave me was 5 silly, inconsequential reasons to announce offending player's.
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Don't dismiss his points as "silly" just to attempt to win an argument. Those are all great points he made. You've lost this one.
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Another reason is it might help the fans better understand what is going on. It is so easy to "tape" a game. All that you need is an i-pad or even an i-phone. It might be helpful for the fan to go back to the tape and see the exact foul the official was calling.
I know this reason is probably silly too.
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If protecting the embarrassment/humiliation of the player is the primary concern, are we also to protect them from the harsh embarrassment of being a loser? Perhaps we should stop keeping score also ;-)
On a more serious note, knowing the player number can help the crowd to understand where a penalty took place, especially if there is more than one flag on the play.
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Don't dismiss his points as "silly" just to attempt to win an argument. Those are all great points he made. You've lost this one.
It's not about winning or losing, bossman. I simply do not see ANY relevant value, or improvement to the game, from ANY of the 5 "reasons" suggested, and I see potentially harmful results from publicly highlighting individual player mistakes that may have a detrimental impact on their team's success. Apparently you do, and it would be helpful if you could point out, or explain some actual values or benefits I'm missing, so I can recognize and appreciate these "great points" to the extent you do.
Identifying the fouling players TO THE HEAD COACH, provides ample opportunity to teach corrective behavior, and/or apply consequences WHERE AND HOW AN ADULT INSTRUCTOR DECIDES APPROPRIATE, rather than subject a High School student athlete to PUBLIC embarrassment and potential scorn. H.S. football is at the zenith of over 100 years of expanding popularity, and has somehow survived NOT "officially" pointing to individual player mistakes.
Sorry johnponz, but do really think identifying the fouling player (let's not forget, we're talking HS football) is actually going to, "help the fans better understand what is going on", presuming the signal, and if the practice of announcing the penalty, was received and understood?
With due respect to the writers of the Mechanics Manuals in Ohio and/or Tennessee, VALJ, did either manual include their reasoning, or point to some rational benefit, intended by their decision? Forgive me for going back to my original question, but I'm simply looking for a valid reason for adopting this procedure, and I've yet to see one. It's reasonable to expect, those advocating for this change should be able to explain why it's something worth doing, rather than simply mimicking higher levels, TV Coverage or other sports.
Just maybe, if finding a really solid reason for making this change is so difficult to identify, it's NOT a necessary change.
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With due respect to the writers of the Mechanics Manuals in Ohio and/or Tennessee, VALJ, did either manual include their reasoning, or point to some rational benefit, intended by their decision?
I don't know if they've determined a benefit to the public at large. Whatever the logic is behind it - and I personally don't have a strong opinion behind it - quite frankly is someone else's responsibility. The direct benefit is to the officials involved - their bosses say "announce the number", so they do. If Tennessee and Ohio tell their officials to do it, they should do it. If Virginia decides to tell me to announce the numbers, I do. I don't get a vote, any more than I got a vote when Virginia decided to change their shirts.
deadhorse:
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rather than subject a High School student athlete to PUBLIC embarrassment and potential scorn.
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Al, You may be over the top with your analysis of psychological damage potential.
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rather than subject a High School student athlete to PUBLIC embarrassment and potential scorn.
Al, You may be over the top with your analysis of psychological damage potential.
I don't have any, "analysis of psychological damage potential" but why light a match in a dry forest if you have a perfectly good flashlight that's working?
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I think it's time to kill this one off.