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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: NorCalMike on June 03, 2015, 12:01:38 AM
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I know we have talked about giving options to the Captains/Coaches for penalty enforcement and we have talked about free kicks after fair catches. Tonight during our off season study questions, we were given the following scenario:
K 4 and 20 @ K 30. With the score tied 20-20 only 10 seconds remaining in the game, K1 punts and it is fair caught at the R 30. Now there is only four seconds left and QB A1 throws a long pass to A88 that is caught at the B 10, where he is tackled. On the play, QBA1 is roughed. Now the ball is at the B 5, first and Goal with no time on the clock. Team A’s Coach says he wants to try a free kick for a field goal.
According to rule 6-5-4 we know that Team A can elect to free kick for the field goal. One question would be that if you have this play what options to you give the team A captain/coach. Do you mention the fact that they have the same options about free kicking as the previous play?
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I'm one for explaining the results of the choice along with the choice...."If you decline the penalty, the period will end...." In this scenario I would :
(1) Bring the captain to within earshot of his coach;
(2) explain; "By accepting this penalty, you'll get an untimed down where you can run
a play or free kick for a field goal.";
(3) If the choice is to free kick, I would be sure to use the chains to create a neutral zone
for the free kick and inform the opposing coach of the choice and the requirements
of his team.
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First, there is really no reason to give him any option. It's a "tack on" penalty. There is nothing for him to accept or decline. I don't think there is any reason to say anything.
If you feel you must say something, I would leave it to: "Coach, when you accept the penalty, we will be replaying the down, except that you will be on the B5 yard line with an untimed down." It's his job to know he still has the free kick option. If he asks if he still has the option, but all means, answer his question.
Do you ask the defense who they want to kick off every time they were just scored upon? Of course not. Not every obscure rule has to be offered.
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I'm one for explaining the results of the choice along with the choice...."If you decline the penalty, the period will end...." In this scenario I would :
(1) Bring the captain to within earshot of his coach;
(2) explain; "By accepting this penalty, you'll get an untimed down where you can run
a play or free kick for a field goal.";
(3) If the choice is to free kick, I would be sure to use the chains to create a neutral zone
for the free kick and inform the opposing coach of the choice and the requirements
of his team.
Do you give the option of a free kick after every fair catch? Of course not. So why offer it here? We don't even have officials ask us where we want the ball after a fair catch, or a touchback, or for a try. If we want it somewhere other than where it was caught (or in the middle), it's up to us to make that request.
I don't think you say a word about the free kick unless asked.
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Apologies, but this is a sore spot for me. First, it's relevant to remember that we are NOT dealing with Collegiate or Professional players, or games. Our clients are High School Interscholastic athletes. Our job is to assist those responsible for making decisions that they correctly understand their options.
Although it's both common practice and beneficial for Coaches to ALSO understand complicated or unusual penalty options NF 2-32-5 CLEARLY advises, "A Captain of a team is a player designated to represent his team during: (a) The pregame and OT coin toss.
(b) Penalty decisions following a foul.
(c) Ball placement on a try, kickoff, after a safety, after a FC or awarded FC, a Touchback
and to start an OT.
At higher levels it is common place to direct these decisions EXCLUSIVELY to coaches, however at the HS level (and below) developing leadership skills and responsibility are part of the overall objective and bypassing the designated Captain is disrespectful and counter productive. Ralph's suggestion above, of moving to within earshot of the HC, and explaining the options to the Captain carefully and completely, allow the HC the opportunity to fulfill his responsibility of developing his Captain.
This consideration is not necessary for the majority of penalty options, but the Referee should be aware of situations where ANY appearance of confusion or doubt becomes apparent in the decision process and take practical steps to eliminate such problems. As suggested, moving to where the HC can "eavesdrop" on the explanation of complicated and/or confusing situations is appropriate, practical and an inconspicuous manner in which to avoid unnecessary problems.
The purpose of explaining options is to assist the decision maker to understand his choices, and there is no limit to the number of explanations necessary to satisfy that objective. Our responsibility is to assist a student athlete to understand his options to be able to make an informed decision.
Of course a side benefit to respecting the responsibilities of a Captain, is having that respect returned when the assistance of that Captain may be extremely helpful in dealing with other situations involving his team.
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I agree. The only thing I ask the coach is if he wants to accept or decline the penalty.
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'Spect we Mainers like to yak a little more ;D. In the OP, most coaches and very many officials would not realize the free kick option was still available. This is a very viable situation where it could be chosen and a very intense situation (tie game, goal-to-go , untimed down). In my heart, I would feel I wasn't doing my job if I didn't make the coach aware of it. If the opposing coach questioned why I mentioned it, I would have explained that I would have done the same for him if his team was in the same scenario.
NO: I don't ask the scored upon team if they want to kick or receive.
NO: I don't ask if they want to snap or free kick after every fair catch.
YES: I do ask where they want the ball after a fair catch , on a PAT or after a TB.
I guess it's in my nature to chat (as evidenced on this forum :)) and I feel I'd rather talk too much than not enough.
Oh, by the way, an excerpt from my "Bucket List" ;
- Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics & Patriots all win championships in same year.
- Get a letter form our president on 10/24/2045 when I turn 100.
- Work a game where a free kick scores a field goal.
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Ralph, it's too late to get a letter from President Truman.
As to the play, give the options to the coach. These things are not supposed to be secret. Don't contribute to the outcome of a game by not being forthcoming even though, ideally, every coach would know every rule.
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Ralph, it's too late to get a letter from President Truman.
As to the play, give the options to the coach. These things are not supposed to be secret. Don't contribute to the outcome of a game by not being forthcoming even though, ideally, every coach would know every rule.
Thanks, Jeff, for pulling me out of the past ;D and thanks for the "modify" button! A few years ago when we added FC+15 as an option to KCI, I asked how many realized that the free-kick option was still available after an accepted live-ball foul during the first scrimmage down following fair catch. Very few coaches and many officials did not.
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I know I've said this before but:
If I were feeding, clothing & housing my family by coaching football, I
(or someone on my staff) would know the rule book forward, backward,
and sideways.
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I believe that telling the captain that if he accepts the penalty he will have an untimed down is sufficient. Whether he chooses a scrimmage down or a free kick down is up to him. (No problem with doing this within earshot of coach as Ralph has suggested.)
I believe that by including the option of attempting a FG by free kick may give an unwarranted advantage to team A, by making them aware of something that they not already be aware of.
Consider the OP where the run after the catch ends on the B 10 yard line. Change the OP a bit to say that the run ends on the A 35. Would you still include the free kick option in your penalty choices to the captain? If you say no because a 60 yard free kick for FG is not a likely choice, then including it in the OP seems to be more of a suggestion than an option.
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Thanks for posting this NorCal. It's one of the most interesting hypotheticals I can remember seeing here. I'm going to discuss it with our crew and association rules interpreter to get some additional input. At this point, I'm not sure what I'd do, and I want to have a plan in the unlikely case that this ever happens.
My initial reaction was that I would give the captain and head coach the options, including the free kick. As I thought more about it, I think there's a 50/50 chance that the coach would say "What's a free kick?" Then I'm stuck giving a lesson on 6-5-4 and that seems wrong to me.
In order to avoid helping one team, and hurting the other one, I think I'd go with letting both coaches know that, by rule, there will be an untimed down for A from the 5 yard line. I'm leaning with Prab and AB. It's up to the coach to call his play at that point. Maybe he calls a run or pass play. Maybe he calls for a FG by free kick. Either one is legal, and we'll officiate it accordingly.
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I'm with prab and AB, too. Our job is to make sure the coaches know what's going on. It's not to tell them of every choice that they have every step along the way.
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I'm with prab and AB, too. Our job is to make sure the coaches know what's going on. It's not to tell them of every choice that they have every step along the way.
I'm stuck with something I was taught long ago, "Knowledge has no value, until it's either shared or used". Is explaining a rule divulging secret information, or simply part of our job. I'm not suggesting holding a Rules Clinic during a game, but (at our level) we're dealing with interscholastic student athletes and perhaps even some coaches who have yet to fully understand EVERYTHING.
As for worrying about what an opposing coach might be offended with, the simple suggestion, "Clarification is part of my job, and I will extend the same service to you when necessary" should suffice for all reasonable inquiries.
As for "What's a free kick", assisting teams line up properly in unusual situations is not all that rare an event and serves to facilitate play, which is also one of OUR objectives.
Don't be surprised if after the Captain elects to run a play from scrimmage, and the defense commits a live ball foul, you get a look of total confusion when you repeat the option of choosing to run a play from scrimmage or choosing a free kick from the succeeding spot.
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We spent about 30 minutes discussing this play during our study group. Most of that time was spent with me trying to convince everyone that Team A had the option to free kick on this play. After going through the rule step by step including all the relevant definitions and case book plays, I think I convinced everyone that A has the option to free. My point is that of the 20 officials in the room, I was the only one who knew the rule. Probably because we discussed on here.
My point is that if many officials don't know the rule, can we expect the coaches to know the rule?
After convincing them that A had the option, the discussion turned to what do we tell the captains/coaches. We couldn't come to a consensus. I placed the question to a our former state rules interpreter who works in our association. He is at the SF Giants game today so he said he get back to me.
First off, because the significance of the decision will likely affect the outcome of the game, I am going to make sure that the coach hears everything I tell the captain. Here is what I would say: Captain, You are going to want to accept the penalty for roughing the passer as this will allow you one untimed down. You have the same options on this play as the previous play as it relates to fair catches.
My goal is to let Team A know the rule without leading them down the path. If the coach knows what his options are after a fair catch, he should be able to figure the rest out. I am not giving he any advantage this way.
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Captain, You are going to want to accept the penalty for roughing the passer as this will allow you one untimed down. You have the same options on this play as the previous play as it relates to fair catches.
That's better than explaining that he can free kick (which sounds WAY too much like a suggestion). But it's also why I was a step farther back than that and said, "We will be REPLAYING the down from the B5."
If he knows the rule, then knowing that it is being replayed is the key to knowing he retains his options.
And I like Prab's reasoning above: Would you offer the free kick option if he were on the 50? What about the B20? Why the B5? At what point do you offer it? I don't think you do. If the coach is smart enough to know the rule, then he has an earned advantage. If he's not smart enough to know the rule, too bad for him.
And I also love bama stripes line: If I were feeding, clothing & housing my family by coaching football, I (or someone on my staff) would know the rule book forward, backward, and sideways.
It's one reason I have a coaching job! When I was at the USGA Golf Rules School, the head of the USGA said the same thing: If I were a pro golfer, if I didn't feel like sitting through the rules school, you can be d#mn sure I would pay my caddie to sit through it.
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My point is that of the 20 officials in the room, I was the only one who knew the rule. Probably because we discussed on here.
Time to recruit 19 new members. ;D
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Perhaps it is time to agree to disagree and be thankful that this particular play is at least "rare squared". (Please do not use the term "rare squared" as I am considering having it copyrighted. :laugh:)
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I believe it is our job to provide ALL the options related to a penalty regardless of the point of the game. While I agree that we should not "coach" the captain/coach, omitting such a crucial, legitimate, option (expecting coaches to know them all) would be inappropriate.
As much as I appreciate AB's commitment to knowing the rules better than many officials, I don't feel we should ignore OUR responsibility to provide ALL pertinent information related to a team's options.
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I believe it is our job to provide ALL the options related to a penalty regardless of the point of the game. While I agree that we should not "coach" the captain/coach, omitting such a crucial, legitimate, option (expecting coaches to know them all) would be inappropriate.
As much as I appreciate AB's commitment to knowing the rules better than many officials, I don't feel we should ignore OUR responsibility to provide ALL pertinent information related to a team's options.
"Coach, you can decline the foul, but the game will be over. Or you can accept the penalty, the down will be replayed, except that you will be on the B5, with one untimed down."
On KCI at the R10 with 9 minutes left in the 1Q, do you explain to the coach the option of a free kick? On a kickoff that goes OOB at the R2, do you explain that taking the ball at the 2 is one of his choices? On a defensive encroachment foul on 4th and 2 at midfield do you explain to the coach that he can decline the penalty and still play 4th and 2? Of course not!
On this play, the option of a free kick is not related to THIS foul. The options of THIS foul are accept or decline. Decline ends the game. Accept means the down is replayed after enforcement. Those are his options for THIS foul. Telling him the options for the PAST foul is now coaching, not officiating.
Give coaches that have learned the rules credit. If he knows the rules, he knows he can free kick. If he doesn't know the rules, that's his fault for not being as prepared as he should be to coach his team. Telling him at this point that he can free kick is dumbing down the game to the lowest common denominator.
And Norcal, 19 out of 20 officials in the room not knowing the rule - that's scary!
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I've always tried to give the captain/coach/team enough information so they can make a knowledgeable decision. My verbage for the OP would probably be : "The penalty will be enforced from where the play ended, giving you the ball 1st & goal to go at the 5. You'll get an untimed down to run a play and still have the option to snap or free kick." If the coach grunts and his eyes turn glassy, I'll assume he wants to snap; but I'll feel that I've done my job better then leaving out that option and having him learn later that he could have. It certainly is a "rare squared" (Copywrite pending -Prab 2015) play and ,IMHO, deserves explanation to those involved. :) ;) >:( :( :o 8] ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ yEs:
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I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here deadhorse: but in the situation described in the OP (1 untimed down from the 5 yard line) a team with a decent kicker is likely to attempt a FG. If the coach doesn't know the rule, his team runs out and lines up in formation with the holder 7 yards deep and the kicker 3 yards behind the holder. The defense, of course, lines up "normally" and attempts to block the kick.
I'm guessing that the guys who would have explained the free kick option wouldn't have this scenario. For those (including me) who said that they wouldn't give a detailed explanation, how do you handle this one?
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I believe you should give the coach all of the options. AB pointed out there are times that you do not need to give the coach options, and that is true. You do not give options when the choice is "obvious." Here the choice is not "obvious." I do not want a team to possibly lose a game because I did not give all of the non-obvious options to the coaches. Why don't we ask after every score if B wants A to kick off or receive, it is because that choice is "obvious."
We get paid to know when a choice is obvious or not. We also get paid to know the rules. While it may be prudent, it is not necessarily, the coach's job to know every obscure rule and how it applies to every situation. That is our job, and it is our job to explain the options when those situations arise.
I am not going to let a team potentially lose because a coach did not understand all of his options under the rules.
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I am not going to let a team potentially lose because a coach did not understand all of his options under the rules.
I see it the exact opposite way: I'm not going to help a coach win by telling him about a rule he doesn't know about himself.
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The Officials Manual doesn't offer much help here. It says the Referee is responsible to "give options to captain of offended team." Page 49.
That could be interpreted to mean give all options including the option to Free Kick, or it could be interpreted to mean "If you accept the penalty, we have an untimed down and we replay the previous down at the 5 yard line. If you decline the penalty, the 4th quarter ends and we move to overtime."
NorCal, did your rules interpreter come back to you with any additional info?
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I'm in total agreement with AB here. Telling the coach he can free kick to me ventures into the realm of coaching. There are loads of quirks in the rules that I know about that the coach on my sideline may not.
Our job here is to explain the results of each penalty and the rule book here is pretty plain: They may replay the down. After they accept that option, they could free-kick, they could attempt a drop kick, they could attempt a half back pass. I'm not giving my opinion on any of those options.
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I see it the exact opposite way: I'm not going to help a coach win by telling him about a rule he doesn't know about himself.
Honestly, and I'm really not trying to sound negative, but that's the exact answer I would expect from a coach. To me it falls along the same lines as the coach who is reluctant to post video on Hudl because he's afraid an opponent will see a play or formation use it against them later in the season. Your mentality is different than ours. It is what it is.
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Honestly, and I'm really not trying to sound negative, but that's the exact answer I would expect from a coach.
Not sure that's really fair. Coaches that don't know the rules would be thrilled you are giving them this info, and would want you to do it.
Coaches that do know the rules feel you would be giving the opponent an advantage he has not earned himself.
So, mine is the answer you would expect from learned coaches, but not the ignorant ones.
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Using this logic, we should not explain the penalty options to the teams because they should already know, and by explaining we are giving one team an unfair advantage. Options are options and you are not coaching by giving them.
How about where the choice is obvious and the R says "Coach I am tacking on the 10 yards." Is that coaching?
It is obvious that the intent of the rules writers was to have the referee explain the options to the captains/coaches anytime that there are options where the choice is not obvious. This one is common sense.
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I'm all for telling him the PENALTY options. But a free kick is NOT an option of the penalty. It was an option of the fair catch. Do you give this option after every fair catch? Suppose the fair catch was at the B10 and there was only 3 seconds remaining in a tied game. Do you give him his options then? I don't even hear officials ask where we want the ball after a fair catch. They set it, and if we want it moved, they tell us it's too late, we had to make that option before it was set down (even though there has not yet been an RFP). Surely the spot of the ball is less of issue than a free kick, but that option isn't even offered.
(And I won't even go into the night we were going for 2 on a try and asked for the ball on the left upright. U said no, we could ask, but he didn't have to give it to us, it was HIS option, and he was putting it in the middle).
So if you still feel you are going to give this coach an advantage and advise him of this rule (not a penalty option), at what point do you tell him he as an option to free kick? At the B5? How about the 10? The 20? The 50?
It's a rhetorical question, don't bother picking a yard line - there is no right answer.
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Coaches that don't know the rules would be thrilled you are giving them this info...
We explain rules to coaches most every night out. And they are not always thrilled with what we have to say. ^talk
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I'm all for telling him the PENALTY options. So if you still feel you are going to give this coach an advantage and advise him of this rule (not a penalty option), at what point do you tell him he as an option to free kick? At the B5? How about the 10? The 20? The 50?
It's a rhetorical question, don't bother picking a yard line - there is no right answer. quote]
There really is no "One size fits all", and it's not our job to determine whether a Captain or Coach knows what we think he's supposed to. however, our job does seem like it's our responsibility to give whomever we're talking to the correct information to make a properly informed decision about whatever we're asking them to decide about.
Holding back, what we KNOW to be relevant details, and/or clarification, to the options relating specifically to the situation we're discussing, seems inappropriate and contrary to our objective of impartiality
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Coach,
You had mentioned above that we were being unfair in saying, "Not sure that's really fair. Coaches that don't know the rules would be thrilled you are giving them this info, and would want you to do it." You are really being unfair above. Just because there are some officials who do not understand the rules or their role does not mean you can paint us all with the same "broad brush." Some of us spend countless hours studying the rules. To the point, that some of our "regular job" duties get pushed aside, and to the point that some family obligations are delayed or also "pushed to the side." Some of us run 3-5 miles every morning to make sure we are in shape come football season. That means through ice snow or whatever. I am well aware that coaches sacrifice a lot as well, and also spend countless hours doing what they do. For that I am grateful, as it is important for the game.
That is what I really care about the game. Personally, I have worked at the high school level and beyond (not much beyond, but beyond) for 24 years, and played for 12 years at the high school level and below. That means, I have been on the football field for 36 years every autumn. I do not expect a bozo button for this or even acknowledgement. However, I should not be lumped in with officials who do not care about the game or their interactions with coaches.
I respect the coaches to the utmost for what they do to advance our sport. They for the most part are wonderful people who are doing their best to win. That is their job.
I do not know you, but by you presence on this board, you seem to be in this group of coaches. You spend the time you need to spend working with the young men who play this game, and put in time studying the rules, and the strategies of the game. I respect you for this, and I am truly humbled that there are people like you out there.
That being said, this is a discussion board for officials, and there are young impressionable officials who come here for advice. Your advice on this topic will not help them get ahead in this business. In the instant example of a RTP call after a fair catch, your suggestion of not giving all of the options is totally unfair to the other team. Under the current rules the free kick is about the only way a team can get a chance to win the game if there are under 7 seconds or so on the clock with the clock running. If they try to get their field goal unit out, time will probably expire. Remember under the new rule from last year the only time there is an untimed down is when time expires during the down which the foul occurred (the language is different but you get the idea), the only exception is if the team fouled to conserve time (I cannot imagine a player committing a RTP to conserve time so I am not invoking this rule in this case).
So the only way A can score is by free kick because the clock will not start until the ball is legally touched (by the way that does not apply in NCAA because there is no free kick option after a fair catch anymore). In the higher levels, the Supervisors I know would be livid if you did not give the coach all the options, and they did not have the opportunity to win because their emotions were too high to realize their choices, they did not know their options, or whatever.
I do not want to put some young official in the position that they do not give a coach all the options because they read something on a discussion board. In my experience, it is almost one of the "cardinal sins" of officiating to let a team make a mistake because they did not know what the appropriate options are. This is not written anywhere, but I know from experience it is true.
There are times your comments are helpful because you are a coach who brings a different perspective, and I enjoy listening and taking what I can. That is dangerous for young officials who may read things here though, and do not have the experience to know what to discount. I appreciate your rules knowledge, and often you teach me things on this board. However, as Rulesman said previously, you are a coach and that causes you to think differently than us. That is good for the game, but not necessarily good on this board all of the time.
Thanks for reading this whole long rant.
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If that's the case where time is so low that electing a free kick is the ONLY viable option, why even ask the coach?
Just line them up for the free kick since that is the only obvious choice. Otherwise you would be letting the coach "make a mistake".
Note: I'm being facetious here, I'm only telling the coach that we can replay the down. May include NorCal's line about having the same options as after a fair catch.
Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse, and in our area we've had several free kicks elected after a fair catch including after penalty without officials saying a word so coaches definitely know the rule.
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There are posts from 6 different officials in this thread that agree with AB. The official's manual does not give us a clear right answer to this situation. The lesson for new officials, and experienced officials as well, is that not everything is spelled out in the rule book, case book, or officials manual. In these cases, it's best to get an interpretation from your local association and/or state rules interpreter.
Another lesson is that some posts on this site are stated as facts or rules, but they're really opinions. It's important to know the difference.
Final lesson, and this is just my opinion: This board is better when we get input and opinions (or facts) from knowledgeable coaches.
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I would err on the side of caution by briefly explaining the options available but I would not tell someone how to do their job. This is an odd circumstance and the free option is a part of their options.
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To Johnponz: well said!
tiphat:
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When this happens in somebody's game, let me know what you do :)
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Yes he did. Get ready for another hour of reading post. His answers are in red.
K 4 and 20 @ K 30. With the score tied 20-20 only 10 seconds remaining in the game, K1 punts and it is fair caught at the R 30. Now there is only four seconds left and QB A1 throws a long pass to A88 that is caught at the B 10, where he is tackled. On the play, QBA1 is roughed. Now the ball is at the B 5, first and Goal with no time on the clock. Team A’s Coach says he wants to try a free kick for a field goal.
Can he do that?___Yes_______
How did we get to the five yard line?_Roughing the passer penalty enforcement is from the play's dead-ball spot_
What is the foul?_QB roughing (but we're still working off the previous play's fair catch enforcement_ Type of Play?_free kick_____
Team__A____ Down__Free kick____ Distance_goal_ Yardline_10_ Clock_untimed down_
Rule Citations_see below__________
I believe that Team A’s coach can opt to attempt a free kick for a field goal. Others felt this was not allowed. Also if Team A can free kick where is R’s restraining line? Good question... I believe the referee has the authority to place the ball on the 10-yard line, so that R's neutral zone begins on the goal line.
Rule References:
RULES BOOK
Rule 3-3-3a: ENDING A PERIOD -- HALF (pg. 41) states, "A period shall be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires: a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those fouls listed in 3-3-4b."
Rule 6-5-4a & last sentence: FAIR CATCH (ppg.56-57) states, "The captain may choose to free kick or snap anywhere between the hash marks: a. on the yard line through the spot of the catch when a fair catch is made; ...These choices remain if a... foul... occurs during the down and the down is replayed."
Rule 9-4-4 PENALTY: ILLEGAL PERSONAL CONTACT (pg. 71) states, "15 yards and a first down from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and A has possession of the ball at the end of the down, and there has been no change of team possession,..."
CASE BOOK
CHOICE TO SNAP OR FREE KICK: 6.5.4 SITUATION (b) - RULING (pg. 48), states, "...A may snap or free kick following penalty enforcement."
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The only thing I would challenge is that the ball should be placed on the 5 and the chains used to establish the 10 yard neutral zone.
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I would err on the side of caution by briefly explaining the options available but I would not tell someone how to do their job. This is an odd circumstance and the free option is a part of their options.
This discussion is better suited for a gathering around a table with a couple of pitchers of beer, because it easily touches on a number of side issues. No question, it is an "odd circumstance" that will likely ONLY come into play when time is of the essence, emotions are high, the game is on the line and it's WAY too easy to make mistakes.
Not a bad idea to include a summary of this topic in the pre-game review, especially the part about no matter which option is chosen to put the ball in play after a FC, if there is a foul during that play, the option still exists regarding the succeeding spot (which is the part that will blow everyone's mind).
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Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?
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Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?
It's the rule. NF 6-5-4:" These choices (a-c) remain if a dead-ball foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or an inadvertent whistle occurs during the down and the down is replayed.". The resulting 1st Down is a consequence of the penalty, which includes "replaying" the down (NF: 9-4-4).
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Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?
I've brought this point up before, but it seems like the consensus is that this is a replay. But it's hard to wrap your head around the use of the word 'replay' when you could have this scenario:
A 3/10 @ A40. B is flagged for pass interference on the play. Now it's A 1/10 @ B45. Are we considering this replaying the down?
Of course, whether it's a new series or a replay of the down only matters when talking about the free kick option, which could only occur after a 1st down.
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That is my point, if this play happened on any other down you wouldn't say replay the down, you would say, Automatic first down! Move the chains. I think any penalty where the activity of the play does not result in a first down would preserve the Free kick option. In the Case Book it says PI on B. That is not an automatic first down anymore.
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Replaying the down has NOTHING to do with the NUMBER of the down. It might be another first down, it might be a new first down. The ball may be in a different place. But by rule, if the defensive penalty is accepted, the down is being REPLAYED, which is why all of the previous options still exist.
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Down is being replayed. Do not muddy the conversation.
I am sure the same play was in the casebook when DPI included an automatic first down.
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The only thing I would challenge is that the ball should be placed on the 5 and the chains used to establish the 10 yard neutral zone.
R's neutral zone can extend into R's end zone. Once the kick breaks the plane of the end zone it becomes dead unless it is about to score..IE.. no onside or shanked kick could benefit K. My opinion may be jaded, as I field many questions from coaches during the season, It is my nature to try to explain the situation to the coach/captain as thoroughly as I can and thus my opinion on how I would handle the OP. If your opinion differs, that's fine, do/say what you are comfortable with.
FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE
FYI - The NCAA has renamed the 8th official : center judge.
tiphat: deadhorse: pi1eOn yEs: hEaDbAnG nAnA :sTiR: ^no
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FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE
"Coach, I suggest you reach out to the state office for that."
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FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE
Don't the rules CURRENTLY define what equipment is REQUIRED as well as what is OPTIONAL. Don't have my book handy, but I don't recall seeing a "dress" under either category.
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Down is being replayed. Do not muddy the conversation.
I am sure the same play was in the casebook when DPI included an automatic first down.
It was ... From the 2010 Case Book.
6.5.4 SITUATION: R1 signals for a fair catch beyond the neutral zone on K’s 40. K2 interferes with R1’s opportunity to make the catch. R chooses an awarded catch and to put the ball in play with a snap. During the down: (a) A1 gains 15 yards and the coach of B is charged with an unsportsmanlike foul; or (b) B2 commits pass interference; or (c) an inadvertent whistle sounds during A1’s forward pass.
RULING: In (a), the unsportsmanlike foul during the down does not give A
another choice to snap or free kick. However in (b), A may snap or free kick following
penalty enforcement. In (c), the down is replayed and A has the option to
snap or free kick. (10-4-4a)
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She can certainly wear a dress under her uniform.
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FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE
State issue, but they need to make reasonable accommodations or run afoul of the law. We have girls in Georgia that play basketball in skirts, as well as hajibs (head coverings). Why not football as well? If she wears pants with all the proper padding and happens to have a skirt over that, who cares? Seems like a reasonable accommodation to me.
Not to mention lacrosse where ALL the girls wear skirts!
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State issue, but they need to make reasonable accommodations or run afoul of the law. We have girls in Georgia that play basketball in skirts, as well as hajibs (head coverings). Why not football as well? If she wears pants with all the proper padding and happens to have a skirt over that, who cares? Seems like a reasonable accommodation to me.
Not to mention lacrosse where ALL the girls wear skirts!
It would seem clear, that unless, or until NF 1-5-2 is expanded or amended, a "dress" does is NOT included as auxiliary equipment, nor is it listed as an approved "uniform adornment" in NF 1-5-3-a-5., or c-6.
"Reasonable" is another word that is clearly resident, "In the eye of the beholder".
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It would seem clear, that unless, or until NF 1-5-2 is expanded or amended, a "dress" does is NOT included as auxiliary equipment, nor is it listed as an approved "uniform adornment" in NF 1-5-3-a-5., or c-6.
"Reasonable" is another word that is clearly resident, "In the eye of the beholder".
Federal law supersedes the FED rule book.
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And we want the state being the ones sued for violating her religious beliefs, not us. Kick that bad boy to the state association and stay the heck out of it.
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And we want the state being the ones sued for violating her religious beliefs, not us. Kick that bad boy to the state association and stay the heck out of it.
Exactly right.
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Federal law supersedes the FED rule book.
I'm still more than a few credits short of my Law degree, so I'll stick with the Fed Rule Book, or follow Bama Stripes idea, that what is worn UNDER the required uniform is beyond my jurisdiction.
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I'm still more than a few credits short of my Law degree,
I'm not (UGA, 1982). Yes, I fully believe that any coach with a player in this situation should go to the state office BEFORE the season starts and head off any issues. But if you ban a "reasonable accommodation" relying purely on the FED rule book, you're asking for trouble in the form of a lawsuit.
It's done regularly:
(http://www.dailypress.com/media/photo/2012-02/67855829.jpg)
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I'm not (UGA, 1982). Yes, I fully believe that any coach with a player in this situation should go to the state office BEFORE the season starts and head off any issues. But if you ban a "reasonable accommodation" relying purely on the FED rule book, you're asking for trouble in the form of a lawsuit.
It's done regularly:
(http://www.dailypress.com/media/photo/2012-02/67855829.jpg)
Sounds like rational advice for a Coach, Athletic Director or School Superintendent, given the opportunity to address such an issue with appropriate advance notice, but for an Interscholastic football game official at, or immediately before the start of a game, such a issues seems WAY BEYOND the scope of our responsibility, and authority, and the FED rule book seems like a logical, and limiting, reference.
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Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?
bigjohn this is what I explained to my guys when they asked this same question: Rule 10-1-6 specifies three fouls that include the right to replay a down a) Illegally handing the ball forward, b) Illegal forward pass, and c) Illegal touching of a forward pass by an ineligible. Since roughing the passer is not mentioned then A gets to replay the down.
If you notice in the casebook play that is referenced the foul is for DPI. Even though this is not an automatic first down anymore in the casebook play the penalty enforcement results in a first down as it was 1 and 10. The casebook says that A has the same options.
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I'm still more than a few credits short of my Law degree, so I'll stick with the Fed Rule Book, or follow Bama Stripes idea, that what is worn UNDER the required uniform is beyond my jurisdiction.
Issue settled...the girl has decided to play field hockey yEs:.
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OK, I fully admit that I ran out of time to read all of the comments on this so I am going to ask this question: Why are we saying the down is being replayed? Roughing the QB awards a new series, not a replay of the previous first down.
What am I missing here?
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IMHO, pure semantics. "Replaying the down" is, I assume, shorthand for : "Enforcing the foul from the basic enforcement spot without the down counting". In the Op, as with any enforcement that would create a new series, it's really a moot issue. It would be different than "after the down" as it would with a dead ball foul.
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OK, I fully admit that I ran out of time to read all of the comments on this so I am going to ask this question: Why are we saying the down is being replayed? Roughing the QB awards a new series, not a replay of the previous first down.
What am I missing here?
It's the rule. NF 6-5-4:" These choices (a-c) remain if a dead-ball foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or an inadvertent whistle occurs during the down and the down is replayed.". The resulting 1st Down is a consequence of the penalty, which includes "replaying" the down (NF: 9-4-4).
NF: 6-5-4 provides governance related to FC, and awarded FC, and the penalties proscribed relate specifically to FC situations. The Key provision of this rule is that the FC team retains the option of choosing to snap or free kick, when a penalty (ANY LIVE BALL PENALTY) interrupts or negates the original choice, the team making the FC made, and is part of their agreement to their terms of making a FC.
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2-7-1 defines "down"
2-7-2 defines "loss of down" and includes (BUT DOES NOT DEFINE) the term "right to replay a down".
Methinks that it might be useful to have 2-7 include a definition of "replay the down". Such a definition would clear this issue right up.
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2-7-1 defines "down"
2-7-2 defines "loss of down" and includes (BUT DOES NOT DEFINE) the term "right to replay a down".
Methinks that it might be useful to have 2-7 include a definition of "replay the down". Such a definition would clear this issue right up.
Repeatedly clarifying things that have existed for decades and are generally understood as they are, may be helpful for some, but those repeated additions will produce a 1000 page rule book, that really doesn't change, clarify or improve, anything.
It's good to correct legitimate confusion, but expounding over every, even suspected, drop of fly waste will eventually close down even most efficient Pepper Factory.
Is there REALLY something legitimately confusing by, the final sentence in 6-5-4, "These choices (a-c) remain if a dead-ball foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or an inadvertent whistle occurs during the down and the down is replayed.".
The resulting 1st Down is a consequence of the penalty, which in this specific situation ONLY, adds the unique provision of extending the previous option of choosing to snap, or free kick when "replaying" the down (NF: 9-4-4).
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Is there REALLY something legitimately confusing by, the final sentence in 6-5-4, "These choices (a-c) remain if a dead-ball foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or an inadvertent whistle occurs during the down and the down is replayed.".
There are over 60 responses to the OP on this topic. (Granted that some have strayed off the topic.) If there was no confusion, thtn all we would have needed was the OP itself and your take on it. The rest of us would not have had to waste time and energy discussing what you have already determined is generally well known. "legitimately confusing" seems to be a bit condescending. Suggesting that the rules be amended to include a definition of the term "replayed" will not (IMO) lead to the rule book becoming to voluminous to carry.
I guess that it would be safe to say that we are unlikely to be on each other's Christmas card list this year.
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I guess that it would be safe to say that we are unlikely to be on each other's Christmas card list this year.
Actually, there was no intent to be condescending, although it may not have been my most tactful response. We do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time (sometimes) parsing words down to the gnat's eyelash level, which at times can be helpful, but other times not.
I may However, now when I consider you may be thinking of a two word response to something I've said, my first thought will be you wishing me, "Merry Christmas".
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OK, I fully admit that I ran out of time to read all of the comments on this so I am going to ask this question: Why are we saying the down is being replayed? Roughing the QB awards a new series, not a replay of the previous first down.
What am I missing here?
This thing did get pretty long. Never expected it to go this long. Maybe we should have a rule that the OP must right a summary after the initial 45 answers.
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In my opinion the thread is dead, as we are starting to rehash things that are already stated.
Somehow we even talked about players in dresses when it started out asking about whether or not we should give options to coaches with regard to a fair catch.
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Can we all agree to disagree on this ??? ????
IMHO, we reflect 3 points of view :
(1) Some, such as me, that want to explain options/ramifications in detail.
(2) Many that prefer a basic "accept or decline" option.
(3) Knowledgeable coaches (AB) that know the rules as well as/ better than many officials and want the edge that their studies gives them.
IMHO, all 3 points of view are fine...if we all were the same it would be a boring world tiphat:
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There are over 60 responses to the OP on this topic. (Granted that some have strayed off the topic.) If there was no confusion, thtn all we would have needed was the OP itself and your take on it. The rest of us would not have had to waste time and energy discussing what you have already determined is generally well known. "legitimately confusing" seems to be a bit condescending. Suggesting that the rules be amended to include a definition of the term "replayed" will not (IMO) lead to the rule book becoming to voluminous to carry.
I guess that it would be safe to say that we are unlikely to be on each other's Christmas card list this year.
I agree that it's not clearly defined in the rule book, but the case book does make it clear that the rule makers intend for the free kick option to remain.
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In my opinion the thread is dead, as we are starting to rehash things that are already stated.
Your wish is my command.