Author Topic: Options to Captain/Coach  (Read 43692 times)

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Offline Bwest

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2015, 01:14:30 PM »
I'm in total agreement with AB here. Telling the coach he can free kick to me ventures into the realm of coaching. There are loads of quirks in the rules that I know about that the coach on my sideline may not.

Our job here is to explain the results of each penalty and the rule book here is pretty plain: They may replay the down. After they accept that option, they could free-kick, they could attempt a drop kick, they could attempt a half back pass. I'm not giving my opinion on any of those options.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2015, 01:24:16 PM »
I see it the exact opposite way: I'm not going to help a coach win by telling him about a rule he doesn't know about himself.
Honestly, and I'm really not trying to sound negative, but that's the exact answer I would expect from a coach. To me it falls along the same lines as the coach who is reluctant to post video on Hudl because he's afraid an opponent will see a play or formation use it against them later in the season. Your mentality is different than ours. It is what it is.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2015, 02:33:09 PM »
Honestly, and I'm really not trying to sound negative, but that's the exact answer I would expect from a coach.
Not sure that's really fair.  Coaches that don't know the rules would be thrilled you are giving them this info, and would want you to do it.

Coaches that do know the rules feel you would be giving the opponent an advantage he has not earned himself.

So, mine is the answer you would expect from learned coaches, but not the ignorant ones.

Johnponz

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2015, 06:37:55 PM »
Using this logic, we should not explain the penalty options to the teams because they should already know, and by explaining we are giving one team an unfair advantage. Options are options and you are not coaching by giving them. 

How about where the choice is obvious and the R says "Coach I am tacking on the 10 yards." Is that coaching?

It is obvious that the intent of the rules writers was to have the referee explain the options to the captains/coaches anytime that there are options where the choice is not obvious.  This one is common sense.


Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2015, 08:29:25 PM »
I'm all for telling him the PENALTY options.  But a free kick is NOT an option of the penalty.  It was an option of the fair catch.  Do you give this option after every fair catch?  Suppose the fair catch was at the B10 and there was only 3 seconds remaining in a tied game.  Do you give him his options then?  I don't even hear officials ask where we want the ball after a fair catch.  They set it, and if we want it moved, they tell us it's too late, we had to make that option before it was set down (even though there has not yet been an RFP).  Surely the spot of the ball is less of issue than a free kick, but that option isn't even offered.

(And I won't even go into the night we were going for 2 on a try and asked for the ball on the left upright.  U said no, we could ask, but he didn't have to give it to us, it was HIS option, and he was putting it in the middle).

So if you still feel you are going to give this coach an advantage and advise him of this rule (not a penalty option), at what point do you tell him he as an option to free kick?  At the B5?  How about the 10?  The 20?  The 50?

It's a rhetorical question, don't bother picking a yard line - there is no right answer.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2015, 09:30:53 PM »
Coaches that don't know the rules would be thrilled you are giving them this info...
We explain rules to coaches most every night out. And they are not always thrilled with what we have to say.  ^talk
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2015, 10:37:38 PM »
I'm all for telling him the PENALTY options.  So if you still feel you are going to give this coach an advantage and advise him of this rule (not a penalty option), at what point do you tell him he as an option to free kick?  At the B5?  How about the 10?  The 20?  The 50?

It's a rhetorical question, don't bother picking a yard line - there is no right answer. quote]

There really is no "One size fits all", and it's not our job to determine whether a Captain or Coach knows what we think he's supposed to.  however, our job does seem like it's our responsibility to give whomever we're talking to the correct information to make a properly informed decision about whatever we're asking them to decide about. 

Holding back, what we KNOW to be relevant details, and/or clarification, to the options relating specifically to the situation we're discussing, seems inappropriate and contrary to our objective of impartiality

Johnponz

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2015, 08:27:59 AM »
Coach,

You had mentioned above that we were being unfair in saying, "Not sure that's really fair.  Coaches that don't know the rules would be thrilled you are giving them this info, and would want you to do it."  You are really being unfair above.  Just because there are some officials who do not understand the rules or their role does not mean you can paint us all with the same "broad brush."  Some of us spend countless hours studying the rules.  To the point, that some of our "regular job" duties get pushed aside, and to the point that some family obligations are delayed or also "pushed to the side."  Some of us run 3-5 miles every morning to make sure we are in shape come football season.  That means through ice snow or whatever.  I am well aware that coaches sacrifice a lot as well, and also spend countless hours doing what they do.  For that I am grateful, as it is important for the game.

That is what I really care about the game.  Personally, I have worked at the high school level and beyond (not much beyond, but beyond) for 24 years, and played for 12 years at the high school level and below.  That means, I have been on the football field for 36 years every autumn.  I do not expect a bozo button for this or even acknowledgement.  However, I should not be lumped in with officials who do not care about the game or their interactions with coaches.

I respect the coaches to the utmost for what they do to advance our sport.  They for the most part are wonderful people who are doing their best to win.  That is their job.

I do not know you, but by you presence on this board, you seem to be in this group of coaches.  You spend the time you need to spend working with the young men who play this game, and put in time studying the rules, and the strategies of the game.  I respect you for this, and I am truly humbled that there are people like you out there.

That being said, this is a discussion board for officials, and there are young impressionable officials who come here for advice.  Your advice on this topic will not help them get ahead in this business.  In the instant example of a RTP call after a fair catch, your suggestion of not giving all of the options is totally unfair to the other team.  Under the current rules the free kick is about the only way a team can get a chance to win the game if there are under 7 seconds or so on the clock with the clock running.  If they try to get their field goal unit out, time will probably expire.  Remember under the new rule from last year the only time there is an untimed down is when time expires during the down which the foul occurred (the language is different but you get the idea), the only exception is if the team fouled to conserve time (I cannot imagine a player committing a RTP to conserve time so I am not invoking this rule in this case).

So the only way A can score is by free kick because the clock will not start until the ball is legally touched (by the way that does not apply in NCAA because there is no free kick option after a fair catch anymore). In the higher levels, the Supervisors I know would be livid if you did not give the coach all the options, and they did not have the opportunity to win because their emotions were too high to realize their choices, they did not know their options, or whatever. 

I do not want to put some young official in the position that they do not give a coach all the options because they read something on a discussion board.  In my experience, it is almost one of the "cardinal sins" of officiating to let a team make a mistake because they did not know what the appropriate options are.  This is not written anywhere, but I know from experience it is true.

There are times your comments are helpful because you are a coach who brings a different perspective, and I enjoy listening and taking what I can.  That is dangerous for young officials who may read things here though, and do not have the experience to know what to discount.  I appreciate your rules knowledge, and often you teach me things on this board.  However, as Rulesman said previously, you are a coach and that causes you to think differently than us.  That is good for the game, but not necessarily good on this board all of the time.

Thanks for reading this whole long rant.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 09:03:04 AM by Johnponz »

Offline Bwest

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2015, 09:13:03 AM »
If that's the case where time is so low that electing a free kick is the ONLY viable option, why even ask the coach?

Just line them up for the free kick since that is the only obvious choice. Otherwise you would be letting the coach "make a mistake".

Note: I'm being facetious here, I'm only telling the coach that we can replay the down. May include NorCal's line about having the same options as after a fair catch.

Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse, and in our area we've had several free kicks elected after a fair catch including after penalty without officials saying a word so coaches definitely know the rule.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 09:18:48 AM by Bwest »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2015, 10:45:39 AM »
There are posts from 6 different officials in this thread that agree with AB. The official's manual does not give us a clear right answer to this situation. The lesson for new officials, and experienced officials as well, is that not everything is spelled out in the rule book, case book, or officials manual.  In these cases, it's best to get an interpretation from your local association and/or state rules interpreter. 

Another lesson is that some posts on this site are stated as facts or rules, but they're really opinions.  It's important to know the difference.

Final lesson, and this is just my opinion: This board is better when we get input and opinions (or facts) from knowledgeable coaches.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2015, 10:50:10 AM »
I would err on the side of caution by briefly explaining the options available but I would not tell someone how to do their job.  This is an odd circumstance and the free option is a part of their options.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2015, 11:32:47 AM »
To Johnponz: well said!

 tiphat:
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline bossman72

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2015, 12:01:25 PM »
When this happens in somebody's game, let me know what you do :)

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2015, 09:30:49 PM »
Yes he did. Get ready for another hour of reading post. His answers are in red.


 K 4 and 20 @ K 30.  With the score tied 20-20 only 10 seconds remaining in the game, K1 punts and it is fair caught at the R 30.  Now there is only four seconds left and QB A1 throws a long pass to A88 that is caught at the B 10, where he is tackled.  On the play, QBA1 is roughed. Now the ball is at the B 5, first and Goal with no time on the clock.  Team A’s Coach says he wants to try a free kick for a field goal. 
 
Can he do that?___Yes_______
How did we get to the five yard line?_Roughing the passer penalty enforcement is from the play's dead-ball spot_
 
What is the foul?_QB roughing (but we're still working off the previous play's fair catch enforcement_  Type of Play?_free kick_____
Team__A____ Down__Free kick____ Distance_goal_ Yardline_10_ Clock_untimed down_
Rule Citations_see below__________
 
I believe that Team A’s coach can opt to attempt a free kick for a field goal. Others felt this was not allowed. Also if Team A can free kick where is R’s restraining line?  Good question...  I believe the referee has the authority to place the ball on the 10-yard line, so that R's neutral zone begins on the goal line.


Rule References:

RULES BOOK
Rule 3-3-3a:  ENDING A PERIOD -- HALF (pg. 41) states, "A period shall be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires:  a.  There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those fouls listed in 3-3-4b."

Rule 6-5-4a & last sentence:  FAIR CATCH (ppg.56-57) states, "The captain may choose to free kick or snap anywhere between the hash marks:  a.  on the yard line through the spot of the catch when a fair catch is made;  ...These choices remain if a... foul... occurs during the down and the down is replayed."

Rule 9-4-4 PENALTY:  ILLEGAL PERSONAL CONTACT (pg. 71) states, "15 yards and a first down from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and A has possession of the ball at the end of the down, and there has been no change of team possession,..."

CASE BOOK
CHOICE TO SNAP OR FREE KICK:  6.5.4 SITUATION (b) - RULING (pg. 48), states, "...A may snap or free kick following penalty enforcement."

Johnponz

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2015, 05:56:29 AM »
The only thing I would challenge is that the ball should be placed on the 5 and the chains used to establish the 10 yard neutral zone.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2015, 10:33:18 AM »
I would err on the side of caution by briefly explaining the options available but I would not tell someone how to do their job.  This is an odd circumstance and the free option is a part of their options.

This discussion is better suited for a gathering around a table with a couple of pitchers of beer, because it easily touches on a number of side issues.  No question, it is an "odd circumstance" that will likely ONLY come into play when time is of the essence, emotions are high, the game is on the line and it's WAY too easy to make mistakes.

Not a bad idea to include a summary of this topic in the pre-game review, especially the part about no matter which option is chosen to put the ball in play after a FC, if there is a foul during that play, the option still exists regarding the succeeding spot (which is the part that will blow everyone's mind).

Offline bigjohn

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2015, 08:42:59 AM »
Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2015, 09:01:15 AM »
Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?

It's the rule. NF 6-5-4:" These choices (a-c) remain if a dead-ball foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or an inadvertent whistle occurs during the down and the down is replayed.". The resulting 1st Down is a consequence of the penalty, which includes "replaying" the down (NF: 9-4-4).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 09:06:57 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Bwest

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2015, 08:36:14 AM »
Why isn't this a new series thus not replay the down? The pass resulted in 1st and ten add the roughing yardage. How can this be replay the down? Isn't the first down the result of the play?

I've brought this point up before, but it seems like the consensus is that this is a replay. But it's hard to wrap your head around the use of the word 'replay' when you could have this scenario:

A 3/10 @ A40. B is flagged for pass interference on the play. Now it's A 1/10 @ B45. Are we considering this replaying the down?

Of course, whether it's a new series or a replay of the down only matters when talking about the free kick option, which could only occur after a 1st down.

Offline bigjohn

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2015, 09:27:51 AM »
That is my point, if this play happened on any other down you wouldn't say replay the down, you would say, Automatic first down! Move the chains. I think any penalty where the activity of the play does not result in a first down would preserve the Free kick option. In the Case Book it says PI on B. That is not an automatic first down anymore.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2015, 09:56:51 AM »
Replaying the down has NOTHING to do with the NUMBER of the down.  It might be another first down, it might be a new first down.  The ball may be in a different place.  But by rule, if the defensive penalty is accepted, the down is being REPLAYED, which is why all of the previous options still exist.

Johnponz

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2015, 11:53:16 AM »
Down is being replayed.  Do not muddy the conversation. 

I am sure the same play was in the casebook when DPI included an automatic first down.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2015, 12:17:36 PM »
The only thing I would challenge is that the ball should be placed on the 5 and the chains used to establish the 10 yard neutral zone.
R's neutral zone can extend into R's end zone. Once the kick breaks the plane of the end zone it becomes dead unless it is about to score..IE.. no onside or shanked kick could benefit K. My opinion may be jaded, as I field many questions from coaches during the season, It is my nature to try to explain the situation to the coach/captain as thoroughly as I can and thus my opinion on how I would handle the OP. If your opinion differs, that's fine, do/say what you are comfortable with.

FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE

FYI - The NCAA has renamed the 8th official : center judge.

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Offline VALJ

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2015, 12:41:51 PM »
FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE

"Coach, I suggest you reach out to the state office for that."

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Options to Captain/Coach
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2015, 12:55:10 PM »

FYI - Most recent question from a coach : "A girl wants to try out for the team but her religion requires that she always wears a dress when outside. Can she wear a dress while playing?"....ANSWERS,PLEASE 

Don't the rules CURRENTLY define what equipment is REQUIRED as well as what is OPTIONAL.  Don't have my book handy, but I don't recall seeing a "dress" under either category.