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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: BetweenTheLines on January 22, 2020, 01:52:50 PM
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After a touchdown by A the passer runs to the end zone and does an NFL party with the rest of his receivers (all 5 of them). The BJ tosses his flag, hat, wedding ring, beanbag and both shoes. B's Head Coach informs the Ref that he will take 2 of the 6 Unsportsmanlike penalties on the try and the other four on the subsequent kick. Or, do we treat this differently?
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Treat this as one foul by six players. All six players are charged with one of their two unsportsmanlike conduct foul, but only 15 yards are enforced.
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Treat this as one foul by six players. All six players are charged with one of their two unsportsmanlike conduct foul, but only 15 yards are enforced.
Agree, enforce one unsporting act and each participant gets 1 of their 2 unsportsmanlike conduct fouls
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"As most have likely been reminded, "You reap what you sow". Worth mentioning is the 2nd sentence of Penalty Instructions for NFHS 9-5. PENALTY: Unsportsmanlike Conduct - (S7). If Dead Ball (S7-27) - 15 yards. Also disqualification if judged by the game official to be flagrant (S47).
Ignoring (allowing) this type behavior might be opening Pandora's biggest box.
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We had an instance a few years ago where 7 or so players came off the bench during a fight. The Referee signaled all of them properly and marched off plenty of half the distances in assessments. Same act many players.
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Treat this as one foul by six players. All six players are charged with one of their two unsportsmanlike conduct foul, but only 15 yards are enforced.
Reference?
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I think I agree with Legacy. Even though there were several players involved, it was only one unsportsmanlike conduct action. While reading I thought of a team gathering at midfield to stomp on the opposing team's logo. All players are involved, but only one flag will be thrown. I would be in favor of giving it to the HC as one of his two.
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IMHO, you've got two directions to go.....
(1) 6 USCs = 90 yards in penalties...PAT from your own 11 or kickoff from your own 1 1/16 (assuming my math was correct) or spread them between the two options.
(2) 1 USC and apply 9-10-5 (Unfair acts - Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game. The referee enforces any penalty he/she considers equitable). six players are now on "double secret probation".
IMHO , # 2 would be your better choice. If you chose #1 you would be making a travesty of the game :puke: ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag
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I agree with Ralph.
One flag, One 15 yard penalty. One UNS foul each of the participants.
While there is no rules book support, there have been many occurances of past practice for: One Flag - One Penalty - Once UNS for each participant.
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LOL at Al trying to :sTiR:
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I agree with Ralph.
One flag, One 15 yard penalty. One UNS foul each of the participants.
While there is no rules book support, there have been many occurances of past practice for: One Flag - One Penalty - Once UNS for each participant.
Agree, Common Sense is one on the most valuable attributes of a game official. Support might be found in the "Prerequisites for good officiating" in the "Basic Philosophy & Principles " section of the "Game Officials Manual" ("Game officials must have a football sense which supercedes the technical application of the rules so that the game foes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules.")
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LOL at Al trying to :sTiR:
What else can you do? It's clearly a flagrant celebration
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Agree, Common Sense is one on the most valuable attributes of a game official.
Common Sense is not the same to every official.
Look at this year's Buffalo Bills vs Houston Texans playoff game. Opening kickoff of 2nd half. Ball kicked by Buffalo to Houston player in the end zone. Houston player catches the ball deep in the end zone and takes two steps forwards towards the field of play (he is still in the middle of the end zone). He then looks to throw the ball to the official who says, 'No'. He then just lets go of the ball forwards. Never kneels the ball. The Buffalo Bills jump on the ball in the end zone after he tosses it forwards. By rule, it should be either a TD or a Safety whether it was judged the toss was a pass or a fumble. The R on the field called it a TD immediately. Oh, but the backup crew officials came on the field and overruled the head referee to change his call to a touchback as it was 'common sense' he was giving himself up.
That was the worst ever 'common sense' I have ever seen. You can't just declare a player down by thinking that hmmm... he doesn't want to return the ball. He gave himself up. Really? Then take a knee! What if that happened in NFHS rules on an interception? If the player catches the interception with nobody 20 yards from him and just walks 2 steps then tosses the ball towards the official? Are you keeping the play alive or ruling the player down? In 100% of the plays, I'm ruling it a fumble/pass, the ball is still alive. If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.
Say, there is a hail mary from the team's own 35, just after the snap a receiver's toe (A80) barely touches the out-of-bounds line at the A40. The B coach sees this. The QB still has the ball for another 7 seconds until he heaves it down to the end zone. A80 catches the ball miraculously in the end zone amongst a mob of other players. Are you using 'common sense' and saying that the toe out of bounds had nothing to do with the catch and awarding the TD or are you going by the letter of the law in the book and calling the player for illegal participation?
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Unfortunately, "Common Sense" although extremely important, is never assured, guaranteed or automatic especially when confronted by the totally unexpected or unusual. Developing and correctly utilizing it are both acquired talents.
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If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.
You would also make sure that you would not get any more playoff games that year (and maybe not even the next, depending on how the TD affected the result of the game). Both NFL and NCAA (this has happened in at least one NCAA game, too) want that kind of action to be ruled dead ball, touchback, and I agree with them.
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I saw this in a college game. Player caught the kickoff inside the 5 without signaling for a fair catch. Turned and tossed it to the WH who immediately blew it dead and awarded the fair catch anyway. Then he proceeded to have a discussion with the player. I’m assuming it went like this: “don’t do that again. You still have to signal for a fair catch..” seemed like common sense.
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You would also make sure that you would not get any more playoff games that year (and maybe not even the next, depending on how the TD affected the result of the game). Both NFL and NCAA (this has happened in at least one NCAA game, too) want that kind of action to be ruled dead ball, touchback, and I agree with them.
You sound like a republican senator afraid to vote against the President.
When I make a call, I do the right thing in compliance with the rules. I do not make up a rule to please anyone.
Buffalo was denied a playoff win. Up 20-0 with the ball would have changed the outcome of the game.
Would the Tom Brady 'tuck rule' be called in today’s game, or would we rule Raiders recovered the fumble using common sense?
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Common Sense is not the same to every official.
Look at this year's Buffalo Bills vs Houston Texans playoff game. Opening kickoff of 2nd half. Ball kicked by Buffalo to Houston player in the end zone. Houston player catches the ball deep in the end zone and takes two steps forwards towards the field of play (he is still in the middle of the end zone). He then looks to throw the ball to the official who says, 'No'. He then just lets go of the ball forwards. Never kneels the ball. The Buffalo Bills jump on the ball in the end zone after he tosses it forwards. By rule, it should be either a TD or a Safety whether it was judged the toss was a pass or a fumble. The R on the field called it a TD immediately. Oh, but the backup crew officials came on the field and overruled the head referee to change his call to a touchback as it was 'common sense' he was giving himself up.
That was the worst ever 'common sense' I have ever seen. You can't just declare a player down by thinking that hmmm... he doesn't want to return the ball. He gave himself up. Really? Then take a knee! What if that happened in NFHS rules on an interception? If the player catches the interception with nobody 20 yards from him and just walks 2 steps then tosses the ball towards the official? Are you keeping the play alive or ruling the player down? In 100% of the plays, I'm ruling it a fumble/pass, the ball is still alive. If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.
Say, there is a hail mary from the team's own 35, just after the snap a receiver's toe (A80) barely touches the out-of-bounds line at the A40. The B coach sees this. The QB still has the ball for another 7 seconds until he heaves it down to the end zone. A80 catches the ball miraculously in the end zone amongst a mob of other players. Are you using 'common sense' and saying that the toe out of bounds had nothing to do with the catch and awarding the TD or are you going by the letter of the law in the book and calling the player for illegal participation?
You must be a peach to officiate with. I commend you for knowing the rules, but it doesn't seem you understand the rules. Every time I've seen something like that happen in NFL or NCAA it was either treated as a dead ball and nobody noticed (probably the most common) or ruled pass/fumble and then followed up in training videos as incorrectly ruled. If you don't work NFL or NCAA maybe you never noticed it. Then it's up to your state/regional supervisor/assigner to give you direction on this, but hopefully they would do the same. You don't gain anything by proving how smart you are. Officiate WITH the rule book and not BY the rule book.
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This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?
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This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?
In NCAA I'm a little more lenient on the first down signal as long as it's brief. I'll warn the player to not do it again and surprisingly that seems to work. In NFHS I allow less and definitely flag if it's done a second time. Spinning the ball is an automatic for me on both levels.
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After a touchdown by A the passer runs to the end zone and does an NFL party with the rest of his receivers (all 5 of them). The BJ tosses his flag, hat, wedding ring, beanbag and both shoes. B's Head Coach informs the Ref that he will take 2 of the 6 Unsportsmanlike penalties on the try and the other four on the subsequent kick. Or, do we treat this differently?
I would strongly recommend he throw his watch or a sock or maybe even his shirt instead of his wedding band. He may never find the ring again. I almost had to tell Mrs. VALJ that I lost my ring on the field once. Never happened again, you can be sure of that.
I too would lean towards the "one unsportsmanlike act that all six players end up on double secret probation for" in this situation. If there a 6 players coming off the bench for a fight, or a scuffle that doesn't quite rise to the level of a fight, heck yeah, I'll pop them all. 6 players coming off the sidelines towards a physical altercation is definitely going to make things worse. For something that's a taunt, especially one that is clearly choreographed, get between them and the opponents, tell them to knock that stuff off, and they're all on notice that they'll need to be on their best behavior for the rest of the evening.
This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?
First down signal, unless he's doing it right over or in front of the guy opposite him, I'll tell him to knock it off. Spin the football? We're taking a walk. ^flag
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You sound like a republican senator afraid to vote against the President.
Or more like a democrat afraid to vote for the President. :sTiR:
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Common Sense is not the same to every official.
Look at this year's Buffalo Bills vs Houston Texans playoff game. Opening kickoff of 2nd half. Ball kicked by Buffalo to Houston player in the end zone. Houston player catches the ball deep in the end zone and takes two steps forwards towards the field of play (he is still in the middle of the end zone). He then looks to throw the ball to the official who says, 'No'. He then just lets go of the ball forwards. Never kneels the ball. The Buffalo Bills jump on the ball in the end zone after he tosses it forwards. By rule, it should be either a TD or a Safety whether it was judged the toss was a pass or a fumble. The R on the field called it a TD immediately. Oh, but the backup crew officials came on the field and overruled the head referee to change his call to a touchback as it was 'common sense' he was giving himself up.
That was the worst ever 'common sense' I have ever seen. You can't just declare a player down by thinking that hmmm... he doesn't want to return the ball. He gave himself up. Really? Then take a knee! What if that happened in NFHS rules on an interception? If the player catches the interception with nobody 20 yards from him and just walks 2 steps then tosses the ball towards the official? Are you keeping the play alive or ruling the player down? In 100% of the plays, I'm ruling it a fumble/pass, the ball is still alive. If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.
Say, there is a hail mary from the team's own 35, just after the snap a receiver's toe (A80) barely touches the out-of-bounds line at the A40. The B coach sees this. The QB still has the ball for another 7 seconds until he heaves it down to the end zone. A80 catches the ball miraculously in the end zone amongst a mob of other players. Are you using 'common sense' and saying that the toe out of bounds had nothing to do with the catch and awarding the TD or are you going by the letter of the law in the book and calling the player for illegal participation?
I'm calling by the book in both situations. I can tell the player "take a knee if you want the ball dead in the end zone", but I can't prevent a player from scoring against himself by not following the rules.
If a player goes out, I'm throwing my hat. Even if it had no apparent effect on the play, I'll still bring my information. It will be easier for a supervisor to defend an official for following the rules than for creatively interpreting the rules according to " common sense"
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What part of NFHS 9-5-1 is confusing?
"No player shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume authority for the contest. Examples are, but not limited to:
a. Baiting or taunting acts or words or insignia worn which ]engenders ill will. (NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances.)" (NFHS: 9-5-1-a)
NFHS football rules regulate Interscholastic level athletic events involving children of pre teen and teen age years. Allowing incremental examples of inappropriate behavior to be ignored, unchallenged or where circumstances call for immediate penalty, can ONLY be reasonably expected to ENCOURAGE repeat behavior.
"Preventive officiating facilitates the smooth conduct of a game within the rules. The good official, by actions and/or words, can frequently prevent certain fouls from happening.... so does a competent game official keep the game moving, using using accepted methods to maintain a safe contest while maintaining competitive fairness." (2018-19 Football Game Officials Manual, Basic Philosophy & Principles)
Monitoring and quickly engaging to interrupt &/or stop efforts to Bait, Taunt or otherwise insult or embarrass opponents attempting initial acts of unsportsmanlike behavior can be an effective and productive means of limiting such behavior and avoiding penalty consequences IN THE JUDGMENT OF COVERING OFFICIALS observing a specific incident & behavior. It is NOT an entitlement for subsequent, retaliatory or additional incidences which should be judged separately & individually.
Common Sense IS one of the most important attributes of a football game official.
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I'm calling by the book in both situations. I can tell the player "take a knee if you want the ball dead in the end zone", but I can't prevent a player from scoring against himself by not following the rules.
I fail to see where any suggestion has been made to "not follow the rules", or creatively interpret them, by ignoring relevant facts. The proper mechanic is to identify where the receiver stepped OOB (before the pass was completed, or even thrown), which is an action designed to certify the infraction which caused the pass to be incomplete.
I would suggest you consider using a bean bag, rather than your hat, to mark that spot at the NFHS level.
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This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?
I'd think this would be similar to a false start announced as 'everybody but the center.' You don't walk off 10 5-yard penalties.
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Wait a minute, that makes sense !!
^good
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I'd think this would be similar to a false start announced as 'everybody but the center.' You don't walk off 10 5-yard penalties.
10 multiple false-start fouls = 1 foul enforced, so we've got that covered ! ;D
I was working a championship game several years ago when, with under a minute to go, a brawl breaks out. Several able-bodied athletic directors were sideline "bouncers" and along with several rent-a-cops P_S P_S P_S restored law and order while z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ wrote down numbers. When the smoke had cleared, there were ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag on the losing team and ^flag ^flag on the winning team. Doing the math we were about to send sNiCkErS our ump on a 60 yard journey when the losing coach piped up : " I'm ready to call it a game, if you are ?" ,he inquired to the opposing coach. He ,too, agreed. I applauded and instructed our sNiCkErS ump to merely hold the ball in the air and save his shoe leather. All the fouls were of a disqualifying nature, and that held.
In 2014, I proposed the NCAA version of DBPF's and USC's cancelling even if there was an unequal number of fouls between the teams. That failed on the floor, as the opponents stated that some flagged would go unpunished. In 2015, I again proposed removing the "in order of occurrence" enforcement and to allow such fouls to cancel the equal number of dead ball fouls and enforce any excess fouls.
IMHO, if the fouls require automatic disqualification, the yards need to be stepped off. IMHO, as in the OP, 9-9-5, you have the authority to have one flag with the drama club teammates all being charged with a USC.
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False start is a dead ball foul.
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False start is a dead ball foul.
Good catch, Markrischard, I have since corrected. :-[
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Is this not a disconcerting act that follows the 5 yd. enforcement?
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Is this not a disconcerting act that follows the 5 yd. enforcement?
A disconcerting act is one that tries to cause the offense to false start. The OP was an attempt to show their drama skills and let the frenzied masses know that is the first touchdown they have ever scored ! :)
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So let's get this straight now. If we have a six against two brawl we have eight ejections and 60 yards worth of penalties. Is that correct? We had this happen a few years ago. Two were fighting in the middle of the field and seven from one team came onto the field of play. We assessed all seven visitors, (the first two offset). The white hat was very priestly blessing the seven offenders dead ball unsportsmanlike times seven I was laughing as a Line Judge watching him genuflecting out there.
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I'd say that is correct, although it would likely be more accurate to say 6 penalties to enforce; unless they're inside B40 you're going to be going half the distance on several of those.
I'd also say this is a situation that should be treated differently than the end zone celebration scenario,because of the automatic DQ, hence different outcome.
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Never mind. Didn’t read carefully.
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TGIF surprise test..... let's tweak this a little....
Fight begins between the two opponents during a live ball, as the 2nd period ends. The Magnificent Seven visitors then wander our to see who is winning :o tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl . You are the lucky white hat and need to decide....
(1) Offset the 2 PFs and tack the 7 USCs onto the ensuing kickoff.
(2) Offset the 2 PFs and tack the 7 USCs on for an untimed down.
(3) Offset the 2 PFs and allow which USC the home team wishes now and carry the remainder to the ensuing kickoff.
(4) As halftime appears to arrived, how would you determine which players are crossing the field toward their locker room and which were out to watch the fight ?
(5) Offset the 2 PFs, have an untimed down, and give the wanders the benefit of doubt.
(6) Call the PFs a dead ball foul and DQ - they cancel -and off to halftime and a warm room.
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Because of 4, I would choose 5.
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You have a double foul situation on the play during which time expired, which means you should have an untimed down.
If the seven off the bench really didn't participate and just got a closer angle as they were fundamentally walking to the locker room, I'd also vote 5 -- a stern talking to and warning to never make me even think about throwing that flag. If they engaged in the ruckus at all, then we've got problems.
If any of the seven earn a flag (and a DQ), the enforcement of that must be on the untimed down since we've got one. There's no option to enforce the fouls on the second half kickoff if there is a play between now and then.
Final option -- convince both coaches to decline the live ball PFs that would have offset anyway, and the half is over -- go simmer down during halftime.
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Because of 4, I would choose 5.
I agree, Bobby, lets not get too flag happy on this.
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You have a double foul situation on the play during which time expired, which means you should have an untimed down.
If the seven off the bench really didn't participate and just got a closer angle as they were fundamentally walking to the locker room, I'd also vote 5 -- a stern talking to and warning to never make me even think about throwing that flag. If they engaged in the ruckus at all, then we've got problems.
If any of the seven earn a flag (and a DQ), the enforcement of that must be on the untimed down since we've got one. There's no option to enforce the fouls on the second half kickoff if there is a play between now and then.
Final option -- convince both coaches to decline the live ball PFs that would have offset anyway, and the half is over -- go simmer down during halftime.
Good points, NCwingman. The option to decline the double fouls by the coaches , unlike those that before and after a COP, isn't available. You could ,however, rule that the "failure to communicate " didn't rise to the fight/DQ level until after the ball became dead = DBPFs cancel and all can go to a warm place to cool off. CAUTION :If the team on offense is within FG range, you could be taking away their chance to score.
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Final option -- convince both coaches to decline the live ball PFs that would have offset anyway, and the half is over -- go simmer down during halftime.
Sorry that I'm late to the party, but the fouls automatically offset with a replay of the down, don't they? There's no option to decline part of a double foul unless there's a COP during the down, right?
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I think that's what Ralph said in the post above yours