Author Topic: Choreographed Celebration?  (Read 1424 times)

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Offline BetweenTheLines

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Choreographed Celebration?
« on: January 22, 2020, 01:52:50 PM »
After a touchdown by A the passer runs to the end zone and does an NFL party with the rest of his receivers (all 5 of them). The BJ tosses his flag, hat, wedding ring, beanbag and both shoes. B's Head Coach informs the Ref that he will take 2 of the 6 Unsportsmanlike penalties on the try and the other four on the subsequent kick. Or, do we treat this differently?

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 02:06:46 PM »
Treat this as one foul by six players. All six players are charged with one of their two unsportsmanlike conduct foul, but only 15 yards are enforced.

Offline Ump33

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 06:34:19 PM »
Treat this as one foul by six players. All six players are charged with one of their two unsportsmanlike conduct foul, but only 15 yards are enforced.
Agree, enforce one unsporting act and each participant gets 1 of their 2 unsportsmanlike conduct fouls

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 06:50:49 PM »
"As most have likely been reminded, "You reap what you sow". Worth mentioning is the 2nd sentence of Penalty Instructions for NFHS 9-5. PENALTY: Unsportsmanlike Conduct - (S7). If Dead Ball (S7-27) - 15 yards. Also disqualification if judged by the game official to be flagrant (S47).

Ignoring (allowing) this type behavior might be opening Pandora's biggest box.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 06:52:32 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2020, 06:53:29 AM »
We had an instance a few years ago where 7 or so players came off the bench during a fight. The Referee signaled all of them properly and marched off plenty of half the distances in assessments. Same act many players.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 08:06:43 AM »
Treat this as one foul by six players. All six players are charged with one of their two unsportsmanlike conduct foul, but only 15 yards are enforced.

Reference?

Offline NMWH

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 08:41:45 AM »
I think I agree with Legacy. Even though there were several players involved, it was only one unsportsmanlike conduct action. While reading I thought of a team gathering at midfield to stomp on the opposing team's logo. All players are involved, but only one flag will be thrown. I would be in favor of giving it to the HC as one of his two.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 10:15:43 AM »
IMHO, you've got two directions to go.....

(1) 6 USCs = 90 yards in penalties...PAT from your own 11 or kickoff from your own 1 1/16 (assuming my math was correct) or spread them between the two options.

(2) 1 USC and apply 9-10-5 (Unfair acts - Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game. The referee enforces any penalty he/she considers equitable). six players are now on "double secret probation".

IMHO , # 2 would be your better choice. If you chose #1 you would be making a travesty of the game  :puke:  ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag

Offline KWH

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 01:38:09 PM »

I agree with Ralph.
One flag, One 15 yard penalty. One UNS foul each of the participants.

While there is no rules book support, there have been many occurances of past practice for: One Flag - One Penalty - Once UNS for each participant.
SEE everything that you CALL, but;
Don't CALL everything you SEE!

Offline SCline

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 09:44:34 PM »
LOL at Al trying to  :sTiR:

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2020, 10:21:20 AM »
I agree with Ralph.
One flag, One 15 yard penalty. One UNS foul each of the participants.

While there is no rules book support, there have been many occurances of past practice for: One Flag - One Penalty - Once UNS for each participant.

Agree, Common Sense is one on the most valuable attributes of a game official.  Support might be found in the "Prerequisites for good officiating" in the "Basic Philosophy & Principles " section of the "Game Officials Manual" ("Game officials must have a football sense which supercedes the technical application of the rules so that the game foes smoothly.  Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules.")

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2020, 01:07:41 PM »
LOL at Al trying to  :sTiR:

What else can you do? It's clearly a flagrant celebration

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 01:43:14 PM »
Agree, Common Sense is one on the most valuable attributes of a game official.

Common Sense is not the same to every official.

Look at this year's Buffalo Bills vs Houston Texans playoff game. Opening kickoff of 2nd half. Ball kicked by Buffalo to Houston player in the end zone. Houston player catches the ball deep in the end zone and takes two steps forwards towards the field of play (he is still in the middle of the end zone). He then looks to throw the ball to the official who says, 'No'. He then just lets go of the ball forwards. Never kneels the ball. The Buffalo Bills jump on the ball in the end zone after he tosses it forwards. By rule, it should be either a TD or a Safety whether it was judged the toss was a pass or a fumble. The R on the field called it a TD immediately. Oh, but the backup crew officials came on the field and overruled the head referee to change his call to a touchback as it was 'common sense' he was giving himself up.

That was the worst ever 'common sense' I have ever seen. You can't just declare a player down by thinking that hmmm... he doesn't want to return the ball. He gave himself up. Really? Then take a knee! What if that happened in NFHS rules on an interception? If the player catches the interception with nobody 20 yards from him and just walks 2 steps then tosses the ball towards the official? Are you keeping the play alive or ruling the player down? In 100% of the plays, I'm ruling it a fumble/pass, the ball is still alive. If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.

Say, there is a hail mary from the team's own 35, just after the snap a receiver's toe (A80) barely touches the out-of-bounds line at the A40. The B coach sees this. The QB still has the ball for another 7 seconds until he heaves it down to the end zone. A80 catches the ball miraculously in the end zone amongst a mob of other players. Are you using 'common sense' and saying that the toe out of bounds had nothing to do with the catch and awarding the TD or are you going by the letter of the law in the book and calling the player for illegal participation?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 01:55:43 PM by bbeagle »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2020, 10:35:54 PM »
Unfortunately, "Common Sense" although extremely important, is never assured, guaranteed or automatic especially when confronted by the totally unexpected or unusual. Developing and correctly utilizing it are both acquired talents.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2020, 05:29:13 AM »
If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.

You would also make sure that you would not get any more playoff games that year (and maybe not even the next, depending on how the TD affected the result of the game). Both NFL and NCAA (this has happened in at least one NCAA game, too) want that kind of action to be ruled dead ball, touchback, and I agree with them.

Offline NMWH

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 07:54:07 AM »
I saw this in a college game. Player caught the kickoff inside the 5 without signaling for a fair catch. Turned and tossed it to the WH who immediately blew it dead and awarded the fair catch anyway. Then he proceeded to have a discussion with the player.  Im assuming it went like this: dont do that again. You still have to signal for a fair catch.. seemed like common sense.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2020, 07:27:04 PM »
You would also make sure that you would not get any more playoff games that year (and maybe not even the next, depending on how the TD affected the result of the game). Both NFL and NCAA (this has happened in at least one NCAA game, too) want that kind of action to be ruled dead ball, touchback, and I agree with them.

You sound like a republican senator afraid to vote against the President.

When I make a call, I do the right thing in compliance with the rules. I do not make up a rule to please anyone.

Buffalo was denied a playoff win. Up 20-0 with the ball would have changed the outcome of the game.

Would the Tom Brady 'tuck rule' be called in today’s game, or would we rule Raiders recovered the fumble using common sense?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 07:37:17 PM by bbeagle »

Offline Magician

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2020, 07:49:22 PM »
Common Sense is not the same to every official.

Look at this year's Buffalo Bills vs Houston Texans playoff game. Opening kickoff of 2nd half. Ball kicked by Buffalo to Houston player in the end zone. Houston player catches the ball deep in the end zone and takes two steps forwards towards the field of play (he is still in the middle of the end zone). He then looks to throw the ball to the official who says, 'No'. He then just lets go of the ball forwards. Never kneels the ball. The Buffalo Bills jump on the ball in the end zone after he tosses it forwards. By rule, it should be either a TD or a Safety whether it was judged the toss was a pass or a fumble. The R on the field called it a TD immediately. Oh, but the backup crew officials came on the field and overruled the head referee to change his call to a touchback as it was 'common sense' he was giving himself up.

That was the worst ever 'common sense' I have ever seen. You can't just declare a player down by thinking that hmmm... he doesn't want to return the ball. He gave himself up. Really? Then take a knee! What if that happened in NFHS rules on an interception? If the player catches the interception with nobody 20 yards from him and just walks 2 steps then tosses the ball towards the official? Are you keeping the play alive or ruling the player down? In 100% of the plays, I'm ruling it a fumble/pass, the ball is still alive. If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.

Say, there is a hail mary from the team's own 35, just after the snap a receiver's toe (A80) barely touches the out-of-bounds line at the A40. The B coach sees this. The QB still has the ball for another 7 seconds until he heaves it down to the end zone. A80 catches the ball miraculously in the end zone amongst a mob of other players. Are you using 'common sense' and saying that the toe out of bounds had nothing to do with the catch and awarding the TD or are you going by the letter of the law in the book and calling the player for illegal participation?


You must be a peach to officiate with. I commend you for knowing the rules, but it doesn't seem you understand the rules. Every time I've seen something like that happen in NFL or NCAA it was either treated as a dead ball and nobody noticed (probably the most common) or ruled pass/fumble and then followed up in training videos as incorrectly ruled. If you don't work NFL or NCAA maybe you never noticed it. Then it's up to your state/regional supervisor/assigner to give you direction on this, but hopefully they would do the same. You don't gain anything by proving how smart you are. Officiate WITH the rule book and not BY the rule book.

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2020, 08:45:29 AM »
This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?

Offline Magician

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2020, 09:35:02 AM »
This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?


In NCAA I'm a little more lenient on the first down signal as long as it's brief. I'll warn the player to not do it again and surprisingly that seems to work. In NFHS I allow less and definitely flag if it's done a second time. Spinning the ball is an automatic for me on both levels.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2020, 01:33:36 PM »
After a touchdown by A the passer runs to the end zone and does an NFL party with the rest of his receivers (all 5 of them). The BJ tosses his flag, hat, wedding ring, beanbag and both shoes. B's Head Coach informs the Ref that he will take 2 of the 6 Unsportsmanlike penalties on the try and the other four on the subsequent kick. Or, do we treat this differently?

I would strongly recommend he throw his watch or a sock or maybe even his shirt instead of his wedding band.  He may never find the ring again.  I almost had to tell Mrs. VALJ that I lost my ring on the field once.  Never happened again, you can be sure of that.

I too would lean towards the "one unsportsmanlike act that all six players end up on double secret probation for" in this situation.  If there a 6 players coming off the bench for a fight, or a scuffle that doesn't quite rise to the level of a fight, heck yeah, I'll pop them all.  6 players coming off the sidelines towards a physical altercation is definitely going to make things worse.  For something that's a taunt, especially one that is clearly choreographed, get between them and the opponents, tell them to knock that stuff off, and they're all on notice that they'll need to be on their best behavior for the rest of the evening.

This thread has taken a lot of turns. I was having a discussion about the choreographed celebration with my buddy here in SC.. We figured the way things work this type of celebration will probably filter down to the high school level at one time or another and we should be ready for it. There were two more types of celebrations going on in TV land and would like everyone's opinion on these also. Signaling for a first down after a play and spinning the football on the ground. We, (my buddy and I) kinda decided that telling the player to not do it again would hopefully work. I know there is no rules support for that but this seems to be a good solution. What do you all think?


First down signal, unless he's doing it right over or in front of the guy opposite him, I'll tell him to knock it off.  Spin the football?  We're taking a walk.   ^flag

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2020, 02:01:31 PM »
You sound like a republican senator afraid to vote against the President.
Or more like a democrat afraid to vote for the President.   :sTiR:

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2020, 02:36:28 PM »
Common Sense is not the same to every official.

Look at this year's Buffalo Bills vs Houston Texans playoff game. Opening kickoff of 2nd half. Ball kicked by Buffalo to Houston player in the end zone. Houston player catches the ball deep in the end zone and takes two steps forwards towards the field of play (he is still in the middle of the end zone). He then looks to throw the ball to the official who says, 'No'. He then just lets go of the ball forwards. Never kneels the ball. The Buffalo Bills jump on the ball in the end zone after he tosses it forwards. By rule, it should be either a TD or a Safety whether it was judged the toss was a pass or a fumble. The R on the field called it a TD immediately. Oh, but the backup crew officials came on the field and overruled the head referee to change his call to a touchback as it was 'common sense' he was giving himself up.

That was the worst ever 'common sense' I have ever seen. You can't just declare a player down by thinking that hmmm... he doesn't want to return the ball. He gave himself up. Really? Then take a knee! What if that happened in NFHS rules on an interception? If the player catches the interception with nobody 20 yards from him and just walks 2 steps then tosses the ball towards the official? Are you keeping the play alive or ruling the player down? In 100% of the plays, I'm ruling it a fumble/pass, the ball is still alive. If I was the 'R' in the NFL playoff game, I would call the ball alive and overrule the backup crew officials 100% of the time.

Say, there is a hail mary from the team's own 35, just after the snap a receiver's toe (A80) barely touches the out-of-bounds line at the A40. The B coach sees this. The QB still has the ball for another 7 seconds until he heaves it down to the end zone. A80 catches the ball miraculously in the end zone amongst a mob of other players. Are you using 'common sense' and saying that the toe out of bounds had nothing to do with the catch and awarding the TD or are you going by the letter of the law in the book and calling the player for illegal participation?
I'm calling by the book in both situations. I can tell the player "take a knee if you want the ball dead in the end zone", but I can't prevent a player from scoring against himself by not following the rules.

If a player goes out, I'm throwing my hat. Even if it had no apparent effect on the play, I'll still bring my information. It will be easier for a supervisor to defend an official for following the rules than for creatively interpreting the rules according to " common sense"

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2020, 02:36:41 PM »
What part of NFHS 9-5-1 is confusing?

"No player shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume authority for the contest. Examples are, but not limited to:

a. Baiting or taunting acts or words or insignia worn which ]engenders ill will. (NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances.)" (NFHS: 9-5-1-a)

NFHS football rules regulate Interscholastic level athletic events involving children of pre teen and teen age years.  Allowing incremental examples of inappropriate behavior to be ignored, unchallenged or where circumstances call for immediate penalty,  can ONLY be reasonably expected to ENCOURAGE  repeat behavior.

"Preventive officiating facilitates the smooth conduct of a game within the rules.  The good official, by actions and/or words, can frequently prevent certain fouls from happening.... so does a competent game official keep the game moving, using using accepted methods to maintain a safe contest while maintaining competitive fairness." (2018-19 Football Game Officials Manual, Basic Philosophy & Principles)

Monitoring and quickly engaging to interrupt &/or stop efforts to Bait, Taunt or otherwise insult or embarrass opponents attempting initial acts of unsportsmanlike behavior can be an effective and productive means of limiting such behavior and avoiding penalty consequences IN THE JUDGMENT OF COVERING OFFICIALS observing a specific incident & behavior. It is NOT an entitlement for subsequent, retaliatory or additional incidences which should be judged separately & individually.

Common Sense IS one of the most important attributes of a football game official.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 02:43:34 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Choreographed Celebration?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2020, 02:51:10 PM »
I'm calling by the book in both situations. I can tell the player "take a knee if you want the ball dead in the end zone", but I can't prevent a player from scoring against himself by not following the rules.

I fail to see where any suggestion has been made to "not follow the rules", or creatively interpret them, by ignoring relevant facts. The proper mechanic is to identify where the receiver stepped OOB (before the pass was completed, or even thrown), which is an action designed to certify the infraction which caused the pass to be incomplete.

I would suggest you consider using a bean bag, rather than your hat, to mark that spot at the NFHS level.