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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 01, 2010, 07:37:22 AM
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? ? ? ? This is not allowed in Fed ?
[yt=425,350]xIi2H4zMZW8[/yt]
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Wouldn't draw a flag around here. But even if it did, I wouldn't want the official throwing his flag directly AT a player.
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Players should always be aware of how they look to the people around them. The player was probably fine until he pointed up. Praying after a score is kind of iffy for drawing attention to yourself, but following it up with the "number one" hand signal probably pushed it over into a flag.
I'm always amused at the people who feel they need to immediately thank their deity for allowing them to do something good on a sports field. This is more of a "Everyone look at how pious I am!" action. If it really were only about thanking their deity, they could have waited until they got to the sidelines to do it (and avoided any possibility of a flag). Or maybe they think their deity has an extremely short attention span and won't remember the touchdown by the time the player goes to the sidelines? ::)
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So that's unsportsmanlike? You've got to be kidding me.
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I'm not flagging that.
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Poor officiating decisions are made all the time, it's not the exclusive domain of just Fed.
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Poor officiating decisions are made all the time, it's not the exclusive domain of just Fed.
Very True
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Poor officiating? For enforcing the rules? Really? Why have a rulebook then? We can just consult you Mike L. The player drew attention to himself.
An example of unsportsmanlike conduct is "[a]ny delayed, excessive or prolonged act by which a player attempts to focus attention upon himself."
I love it when enforcing the rules makes you a poor official. Or apparently, being an official in the NFHS.
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Apparently the NFHS has not tweaked this rule? The NCAA tweaked it in the mid-90's after a lawsuit was filed by Liberty University. The tweak permitted "momentary pray at the end of a play if they do not draw attention to themselves." The NCAA Rules Committee Chairman at the time (Vince Dolley) said the "N.C.A.A. was concerned about the perception that it had banned prayer from football."
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O.O :o :o :o :!#
Are you kidding? If he smiles, do they flag that too?
wow.
So, i guess you can say, i wouldn't flag it, and not only would i not flag it, if i saw one of my compatriots flag it, i would insist they wave it off.
there might be a rule on it, but this type of call is a judgment call all the way. Poor judgment in my humble opinion.
but that is just me :)
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Poor officiating? For enforcing the rules? Really? Why have a rulebook then? We can just consult you Mike L. The player drew attention to himself.
An example of unsportsmanlike conduct is "[a]ny delayed, excessive or prolonged act by which a player attempts to focus attention upon himself."
I love it when enforcing the rules makes you a poor official. Or apparently, being an official in the NFHS.
I think "poor official" was probably a bad tag - however, we must be conscience of the fact that some officials are "overly technical." I do not feel for one minute that the intent of the rule was to flag a player in the given circumstance - 2009 five man crew mechanics - published by my state association - "The intent of each rule must be kept in mind." "Football sense must supersede the most technical application of the rules." There is more that I won't bore you all with because it is common sense for most of us. We use NCAA - but I'm sure NFHS has similar warnings...
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I wouldnt go looking for this, excessive celebration is something that finds you and therefore deserves a flag
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Poor officiating?
Why do you truncate what the poster actually said? Re-read the post. It was refered to as a poor officiating decision, and indeed it was. I'll bet you make one or two of those every time you step onto the field, no? I know I do.
Best regards,
Brad
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Poor officiating? For enforcing the rules? Really? Why have a rulebook then? We can just consult you Mike L. The player drew attention to himself.
An example of unsportsmanlike conduct is "[a]ny delayed, excessive or prolonged act by which a player attempts to focus attention upon himself."
I love it when enforcing the rules makes you a poor official. Or apparently, being an official in the NFHS.
You want to call those 2 second kneel-downs directed at no-one in particluar "delayed, excessive or prolonged" be my guest.
As for your inability to grasp my meaning, looks like Brad already took care of that.
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The player was probably fine until he pointed up. Praying after a score is kind of iffy for drawing attention to yourself, but following it up with the "number one" hand signal probably pushed it over into a flag.
What you describe as the "number one" hand signal would be seen by many of us as the player simply pointing at the heavens to acknowledge his Lord.
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I am obviously in the minority here but I think that's a call that is correct. It fits the "drawing attention to ones self" part of the excessive celebration rule. You want to get on a knee and point to the heavens, do it in the team box.
Let the blasting begin....
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It fits the "drawing attention to ones self" part of the excessive celebration rule.
I see it as drawing attention to someone greater than ones self.
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My supervisor would not want this called.
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Ouch...this made the national news. pi1eOn
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Why do you truncate what the poster actually said? Re-read the post. It was refered to as a poor officiating decision, and indeed it was. I'll bet you make one or two of those every time you step onto the field, no? I know I do.
Best regards,
Brad
You are right. My apologies Mike L. Rereading the post, I certainly went overboard and actually took it out of context.
But I do think that you need to penalize that conduct (and btw, wasn't that a player from the team that blew out their opponent? I need to look at the clip again). But the other poster is right, don't throw the flag at the player.
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What you describe as the "number one" hand signal would be seen by many of us as the player simply pointing at the heavens to acknowledge his Lord.
Even if you took it to point to God, the player is still drawing attention to himself in my opinion.
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So... I think there is a bigger problem here that needs to be addressed... I think most of yall know this all ready but I am still going to bring this up... This story is all over youtube, Foxnews, Yahoo, CNN, ESPN, and local outlets in WA. I am not going to say that this official was right or wrong. I would have not thrown the flag. But how many times have you made a call and just 15 min later you say... 'Did I really have to make that dumb call?' We have all been there, and we know it. Just remember in todays day and age just remember weather you are doing a Pop Warner game or calling a Div II game... most all games are being recorded some how. Just remember that almost everything you do out there is documented on video by someone and we are always going to be put in the dark light we are officials it will always be that way. We are expected to be perfect when we go out the first time and only get better from there. I guess my point is, do your best weather it is Pop Warner or High school be professional all the time and keep in mind that you are not only reflecting yourself but officials everywhere.
By writing this I am no way trying to put any blame on the official in this game, I am sure he would give anything to take the flag back if it ment he was going to be all over the national news... I am going to say a prayer for him tonight... no pun intended...
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I am obviously in the minority here but I think that's a call that is correct. It fits the "drawing attention to ones self" part of the excessive celebration rule. You want to get on a knee and point to the heavens, do it in the team box.
I agree. These acts fit the criteria for a foul. If he pointed to his main squeeze in the stands, we'd flag it.
But the dog has been off leach for several years. It's not likely we'll get him back.
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So in all these years the NFHS has never addressed this specifically? I can't believe this is the first time a kid did something like this. As I mentioned earlier, the NCAA already dealt with this and came to a good resolution IMHO.
Another story: http://www.theolympian.com/2010/12/02/1459932/unwitting-gesture.html
Unwitting gesture; national attentionCause célébre: When Ron Hastie pointed skyward, he brought out yellow flag, and a firestorm about his faith
GAIL WOOD; Staff writer | • Published December 02, 2010
A year ago, Ronnie Hastie came up with a touchdown routine that expressed his Christian faith.
The Tumwater junior running back simply kneels on one knee in the end zone, extends his right arm and points his index finger upward. It takes about two seconds.
“It’s my way of giving glory to God, not to myself,” Hastie said. “I want to give God the credit.”
Players from the NFL to college to high school do similar TD acts across the country. And it’s something Hastie did 17 times this season without incident.
But on Monday, in a 63-27 win against East Valley of Spokane in the state 2A semifinals, Hastie, on his 18th touchdown of the season, was penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct after scoring on a 23-yard run.
“I asked the ref what I did,” Hastie said. “He said you can’t bring attention to yourself.”
That now famous penalty – with the official throwing the yellow flag and hitting Hastie with it – has drawn national attention. A video link from Channel 4’s coverage of Hastie running for the touchdown is on websites across the country. He’ll be interviewed on a national radio show today.
“I am surprised how much attention it’s gotten,” Hastie said.
Some see the penalty as an attack on the Christian faith – akin to when prayer was banned from public schools.
“My dad said that when you put football and religion together you get strong emotions,” Hastie said, smiling.
Sid Otton, Tumwater’s coach since 1974 and the state’s all-time winningest football coach, admits he was surprised to see a penalty called.
“It hadn’t been called all year,” Otton said. “It would have been nice if the official warned him.”
Otton shouldered some of the blame.
“I feel I should have known,” Otten said. “Ronnie is a great kid. He has the courage to let people know what he believes in.”
Mike Colbrese, executive director of the Washington Interscholastic Activities Association, said the official was trying to enforce Rule 5-9, which states that any delay or excessive or prolonged celebration in which the player attempts to draw focus to himself is a penalty.
But Hastie’s bended knee celebration took approximately two seconds.
“The rule stipulates that you return the ball to the official and not bring attention to yourself,” Colbrese said.
Colbrese, who was at the game and not far from Hastie when he made his now famous bended-knee gesture, would not make a judgment on the official’s call. But he did say consistency is the goal.
“What we are doing is we’re having an internal discussion with the Washington Officials’ Association,” Colbrese said. “It’s something we’re reviewing.”
Colbrese said it wasn’t so much what Hastie did. It’s what he didn’t do – give the football directly to the official.
“It wasn’t like he did anything bad,” Otton said. “He wasn’t being like T.O. (Terrell Owens).”
Hastie won’t continue his end zone routine just to prove a point.
“He’s not wanting to jeopardize the team,” Otton said.
Hastie said he’ll kneel on a knee on the sideline.
“I don’t want to make a big deal out of this,” Hastie said.
Tumwater will go for its fifth state title when it plays Archbishop Murphy in the state championship game at 1 p.m. Saturday in the Tacoma Dome.
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I don't think I'd have flagged this, but on the other hand, I don't particularly disagree with it either.
The fact that the flag hit the player seems incidental to me as the flag comes down from a very high angle, and the player was at the time walking towards the official. If the player had stayed where he was, the flag wouldn't have hit him, so claiming that the official threw the flag 'at him' is a bit unjust in my opinion.
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I don't think I'd have flagged this, but on the other hand, I don't particularly disagree with it either.
The fact that the flag hit the player seems incidental to me as the flag comes down from a very high angle, and the player was at the time walking towards the official. If the player had stayed where he was, the flag wouldn't have hit him, so claiming that the official threw the flag 'at him' is a bit unjust in my opinion.
Even if it this true, the official doesn't need to hoist his flag a mile into the air. There's no reason to mark spot of foul, so keep the flag away from the situation.
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So in all these years the NFHS has never addressed this specifically? I can't believe this is the first time a kid did something like this. As I mentioned earlier, the NCAA already dealt with this and came to a good resolution IMHO
Probably will be addressed now or in the near future, much like NCAA probably dealt with it after an incident just like this got a lot of publicity.
As for this call, I'm reminded of something my 1st year instructor (a much better official than I will ever be) always says. "Is that a call you want to hang your hat on?"
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If an official threw this flag on my crew, and I happened to see what transpired, we are waving it off. No way you flag this.
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(S13) ^no
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I see it as drawing attention to someone greater than ones self.
While you are correct, what if a player knelt, faced Mecca, and bowed down once? Would that still not be penalized? The act is still the same, giving glory to a Deity greater than one's self.
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A Muslim "prayer" requires much more than that. It would require so much that it wopuld move into the "prolonged" category and be illegal. If they did as you say that would be a mocking and worthy of a flag
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Does the Fed rule require us to determine the reason he made the prolonged act? I don't think so. I don't know if this kid is actually praying or if he's just showboating. This is a textbook flag and I'm as religious as the next guy but this is just not needed on the field. God has more to do than make you score a TD kid, go praise him on the sideline instead of showboating in the endzone.
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If it is so "textbook" of a foul, why was he not flagged before and why are so many fed guys here and on other forums saying otherwise?
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It should be as simple as:
1. Score legally
2. Give the ball back
3. Spontaneous celebration
4. Be respectful to the opponents you just got in their endzone, remember it is theirs not yours.
While we dont get that technical in Australia I wouldn't throw a flag over here on it but it would depend on if it was becoming a problem in respect of the points above. I don't see it delaying the game really but I wouldn't want to see it as I dont think it is respectful to the game as an individual when it is a team effort, but is that such a crime.
Did the officials identify this as a problem? Then tell the coach or get the BJ over there quick smart and get the ball before he kneels so that it interupts his pattern. Do it everytime he scores and it may not become a pattern. Sometimes we have that teaching role before a flag comes out.
And as to kicking yourself 30 secs later? Yep many a time we question ourselves and then decide it could have been wrong. But hey that is the nature of the game. Would love to say stuff to players and coaches for their stuff up but tell me mine loudly may draw a flag as I am not permitted that luxury to criticise.
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If it is so "textbook" of a foul, why was he not flagged before and why are so many fed guys here and on other forums saying otherwise?
My opinion is that some people are allowing their religious beliefs impact their judgment.
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Here's a situation:
You call for captains and you see a player from a team praying over on the sideline.
You have to delay the coin toss because that player is still praying and is a captain. If necessary, his teammates say that they cannot make a choice because that player is the speaking captain.
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Good question.
Speaking captain or not the kick off time is the kick off time and should not be held up for smoko, religion or even a wee break. If he isnt out there with the rest of them on time then too bad. It has nothing to do with faith or other of these things but rather organisation and time tabling of events. That is part of the rules of the game and for us to manage the game.
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Here's a situation:
You call for captains and you see a player from a team praying over on the sideline.
You have to delay the coin toss because that player is still praying and is a captain. If necessary, his teammates say that they cannot make a choice because that player is the speaking captain.
If it will "delay" him as "much" as this action in the end zone "delayed" things, I think I can get over it.
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Even if you took it to point to God, the player is still drawing attention to himself in my opinion.
I'm not sure how the FED rule reads, but the NCAA rule says that the act must be a "...delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player (or players) attempts to focus attention upon himself (or themselves)."
This wouldn't fit the bill in our code.
Best regards,
Brad
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My opinion is that some people are allowing their religious beliefs impact their judgment.
Guilty (daily) your Honor yEs:
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We had this discussion in summer too, with someone using a #1 signal - then trying to talk it away as praising the Lord.
Seems to me that it does not have to be instantaneous. That prayer or praise can be on the sideline or in the team zone, or before bed that night. He is drawing attention to himself.
I have also been told I am too harsh about celebration penalties and need to lighten up - which I am trying to do. I would have given him a warning.
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James - You use NCAA rules Have you read Redding's memo on unsportsmanlike conduct?
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The state association has spoken
WIAA Statement Regarding 2A Semifinal Penalty
12/2/2010
Reports of a ‘high school football player penalized for praying’ in the end zone following a touchdown have greatly exaggerated an official’s call and taken it out of context. During last Monday’s 2A state semifinal game, a player dropped to one knee and pointed skyward following a touchdown.
Based on national playing rule (NFHS 9-5.C) the referee considered the gesture ‘an excessive or prolonged act during which the player drew attention to himself’. That was the basis of the penalty with no inference to religion or a player’s right to offer a personal reflection of thanks for performing well.
While the official’s judgment was based on a national federation rule, the WIAA will continue to work with the Washington Officials Association to ensure consistent, enforcement and interpretations of playing rules for future contests.
--Mike Colbrese, WIAA Executive Director
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The state association has spoken
WIAA Statement Regarding 2A Semifinal Penalty
12/2/2010
Reports of a high school football player penalizedprayingying’ in the end zone following a touchdown have greatly exaggerated an official’s call and taken it out of context. During last Monday’s 2A state semifinal game, a player dropped to one knee and pointed skyward following a touchdown.
Based on national playing rule (NFHS 9-5.C) the referee considered the gesture ‘an excessive or prolonged act during which the player drew attention to himself’. That was the basis of the penalty with no inference to religion or a player’s right to offer a personal reflection of thanks for performing well.
While the official’s judgment was based on a national federation rule, the WIAA will continue to work with the Washington Officials Association to ensure consistent, enforcement and interpretations of playing rules for future contests.
--Mike Colbrese, WIAA Executive Director
So this doesn't tell us anything. Either they are going to work with them to make sure it doesn't get called or it gets called every time.
This is probably going to be my last post in this thread because we aren't going to change anyone's opinions, and I hate added countless what-ifs (sorry, I am around 6th and 7th graders all day so they must be influencing me), but what if the player points to the sky at the 3 yard line, scores, continues to point and drop to a knee? Still no call?
If you score and want to thank God for giving you the ability to score a TD (and I agree with the other poster that He probably has more important things going on) then do it on the sideline or the team box. I also agree with the poster earlier that a warning should have occured first prior to the flag.
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I am obviously in the minority here but I think that's a call that is correct. It fits the "drawing attention to ones self" part of the excessive celebration rule. You want to get on a knee and point to the heavens, do it in the team box.
Let the blasting begin....
He just scored a touchdown, attention is already on him. by kneeling, and then pointing skyward, he is prolonging that attention on himself. (The fact that he is doing so in a religious manner, to me, doesn't change that).
I think He would understand if you waited the 30 seconds or so it took to get off the field to kneel and thank Him.
Religion is always a tricky subject, but by allowing one type of religious act, we open the door for any number of cases- "In my religion, we praise Him by lying on the ground making snow angels".
That being said, it did not seem like that big a deal. But there is very little context on which to judge it. Had this type of act been discussed previously? Were there other factors involved, such as previous celebrations, the emotions of the game, etc.?
In that official's judgment at that time, in the context of that game, the act rose to the level of a foul. Others may not agree. With the evidence I have, it's hard to fault the official for making the call- or frankly not making the call if it he had not.
I probably would not have flagged it the first time it occurred, but would have made it known that it should not happen again to prevent an escalation of who can be the most pious.
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Here's a situation:
You call for captains and you see a player from a team praying over on the sideline.
You have to delay the coin toss because that player is still praying and is a captain. If necessary, his teammates say that they cannot make a choice because that player is the speaking captain.
Do you remember in the movie Hoosiers when Strap grabbed Ollie's hand and said a prayer before he shot his free-throws and Coach Dale said, "make it a good one Strap." That held up the game for a second or two. Is that a technial foul?
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The fact that the flag hit the player seems incidental to me as the flag comes down from a very high angle, and the player was at the time walking towards the official. If the player had stayed where he was, the flag wouldn't have hit him, so claiming that the official threw the flag 'at him' is a bit unjust in my opinion.
Really? That flag should either be dropped on the ground at the covering official's feet, or tossed directly above the covering official's head (depending on your supervisor's preference). There's no need whatsoever for an overhand toss on this play.
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Does the Fed rule require us to determine the reason he made the prolonged act? I don't think so.
I would disagree - every clinic I have attended, every rules book I have read state that we, as officials, should recognize the INTENT of the rule - and not be overly TECHNICAL. I don't feel the intent of this rule (USC) was for a 2 second delay which did not involve an opposing team or prolonged celebration and involved a short act that by most standards is not offensive. My crew does not flag the "jump and bump" that most players are into if it happens spontaniously and quickly - and even in those cases where it looks like it is getting a little overboard, we warn them - and the coach - before the laundry comes out.
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He just scored a touchdown, attention is already on him. by kneeling, and then pointing skyward, he is prolonging that attention on himself. (The fact that he is doing so in a religious manner, to me, doesn't change that). I think He would understand if you waited the 30 seconds or so it took to get off the field to kneel and thank Him. Religion is always a tricky subject, but by allowing one type of religious act, we open the door for any number of cases- "In my religion, we praise Him by lying on the ground making snow angels".
That being said, it did not seem like that big a deal. But there is very little context on which to judge it. Had this type of act been discussed previously? Were there other factors involved, such as previous celebrations, the emotions of the game, etc.?
In that official's judgment at that time, in the context of that game, the act rose to the level of a foul. Others may not agree. With the evidence I have, it's hard to fault the official for making the call- or frankly not making the call if it he had not. I probably would not have flagged it the first time it occurred, but would have made it known that it should not happen again to prevent an escalation of who can be the most pious.
A reasonably considered, well said assessment and conclusion. Trying to turn this into a "Religious Expressiuon" argument is absolute nonsense. Without understanding the overall context of this situation, rather than this snippet alone is throwing this official under the nearest bus.
Where and how he threw his flag is nit-picking to the Nth degree.
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A wise official often tells me that "appearances are everything". And suggesting that a flag not be thrown AT a player is very much about appearances. No matter what our intent was , those who are watching see the results. And if it looks bad, as this did, it IS bad.
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...what if...not a "religious issue" but a total private thing ? See this (soccer) picture: the player had just scored in the world cup final. He's pointing sky remembering his mother who die when he was teen...
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/78975535.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892155F29F61288AC1CADDAFB46F328CF35C04DFF8923534C6AF568511C3B9AAAD6D
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CFO GUIDELINES ON UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS
Player behavior in committing unsportsmanlike conduct fouls continues to be a major point of emphasis for the NCAA Football Rules Committee and the CFO Board of Managers. Recognizing these fouls and enforcing the penalties place our officials in a difficult situation. It is the nature of the business to be criticized, and it seems especially true when we try to apply the relevant rules (Rule 9-2-1). These are judgment calls, as are all the decisions officials make during the action of the game.
As officials apply their judgment, perhaps these guidelines will be helpful:
Remember that the game is one of high emotion, played by gifted teenagers who are affirmed by playing a game at which they are exceptionally talented.
Do not be overly technical in applying this rule.
Do allow for brief spontaneous emotional reactions at the end of a play.
Beyond the brief, spontaneous bursts of energy, officials should flag those acts that are clearly prolonged, self-congratulatory, and that make a mockery of the game.
A list of specifically prohibited acts is in (a) thru (h) on FR-122,123; this list is intended to be illustrative and not exhaustive. We can all agree that when these acts are clearly intended to taunt or demean, they should not be allowed—not only because they are written in the book, but because they offend our sense of how the game should be played. We now have enough experience with this rule to know what “feels” right and wrong. Note that most if not all of these actions fall outside the category of brief, spontaneous outbursts. Rather, they present themselves as taunting, self-glorification, demeaning to opponents, or showing disrespect to the opponents and the game.
When such a situation arises, officials should wait a count, take a deep breath, and assess what they feel about what they have seen.
If it feels OK, let it go.
If it feels wrong, flag it.
It will never be possible to be totally specific in writing what should and should not be allowed. But we trust our officials to be men of good judgment who know in their hearts what should and should not be allowed in the heat of an emotional game.
Rogers Redding
NCAA Secretary-Rules Editor
David Parry
CFO National Coordinator
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Mike, the only thing that gets me on that is the word "spontaneous". To me, that means unplanned. The act in question, while brief, and I would be ok classifying it as an emotional reaction, to me, does not seem spontaneous at all. Especially if he had done it 17 times before.
Just because it was never flagged before, doesn't mean it wasn't a foul then or isn't a foul now.
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As much as I appreciate it, the rulebook doesn't require a player to hand the ball to an official.
Also, as much as the No Fun League has restricted player celebrations, even going to the ground, they have consistently allowed kneeling for a quick prayer.
The act was not delayed as the player acted immediately after entering the end zone and stopping. It wasn't prolonged as the potential UNS act itself was extremely brief. The only justification for UNS is that it was excessive, and if that's considered excessive by any supervisor, then I can justifiable flag just about anything a player does after a play short of returning to his huddle/sideline.
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If the kid ran through the end zone in exuberance for the same length of time he was on a knee, how many of you would flag that "delay" in getting the ball back. I doubt any of you would. I wonder how much secularism or downright anti-Christian bias is affecting some folk's decisions here.
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Where and how he threw his flag is nit-picking to the Nth degree.
Not for those of us who are trying to get better.
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If the kid ran through the end zone in exuberance for the same length of time he was on a knee, how many of you would flag that "delay" in getting the ball back. I doubt any of you would. I wonder how much secularism or downright anti-Christian bias is affecting some folk's decisions here.
Come on Mike, there is no anti-Christian bias, there is simply a difference of opinion. It is your opinion that that action is not a foul, others think differently. People can disagree without having their motives questioned.
The way I read it, no one is saying the act is wrong for it's religious nature, they are saying the act is wrong because in performing the act where he performed it, he was bringing attention to himself-even if his intentions were noble.
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The reason I say thay is because the weak excuses I am hearing for the call suggest they are just looking for something to hang their hats on without perhaps stating the real (even if unconciously real) reason.
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Not for those of us who are trying to get better.
I've looked at this tape several times and I can't see the flag being thrown. I can see it land, but I don't know if it was thrown in the air and the wind took it, slipped out of his hand or was just a lousy toss.
Isn't this from a post-season game? Is it reasonable to assume that such assignments are usually given to experienced officials AND doesn't every official who has been doing this for a while understand flags aren't thrown at players.
Secularism and anti-Christian bias is really looking for ghosts. This was a flag a lot of officials would not have thrown without there being certain assumptions, which have been clearly and repeatedly stated. The problem is a lot of those assumptions are simply unknown.
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The reason I say thay is because the weak excuses I am hearing for the call suggest they are just looking for something to hang their hats on without perhaps stating the real (even if unconciously real) reason.
I will not pretend to know the subconscious minds of the officials on this board, but I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
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It was in a dome. That must be one strong-a__ air conditioning system!
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A Muslim prayer requires much more than that. It would require so much that it wopuld move into the "prolonged" category and be illegal.
I have a question. If you're going to allow Christians to celebrate with a prayer gesture but not Muslims, is there not a freedom of religion issue here? Especially considering you may be dealing with institutions that are be funded by the government?
I can just see a lawyer somewhere hearing about this hypothetical and sending off for a luxury yacht catalogue so that he can be fully prepared if it ever happens...
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I've looked at this tape several times and I can't see the flag being thrown. I can see it land, but I don't know if it was thrown in the air and the wind took it, slipped out of his hand or was just a lousy toss.
Cmon, Al. It's a torpedo flag, and it was obviously thrown with an overhand toss. After looking at the play again, and seeing the player move toward the official, I'd bet the official meant for it to land at the player's feet, rather than hitting him. Regardless, it's unnecessary -- the flag can simple be dropped at the official's feet.
Isn't this from a post-season game? Is it reasonable to assume that such assignments are usually given to experienced officials AND doesn't every official who has been doing this for a while understand flags aren't thrown at players.
"Usually"? Yes. But I've called playoff games with officials who didn't get there by virtue of their field work.
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Cmon, Al. It's a torpedo flag, and it was obviously thrown with an overhand toss. After looking at the play again, and seeing the player move toward the official, I'd bet the official meant for it to land at the player's feet, rather than hitting him. Regardless, it's unnecessary -- the flag can simple be dropped at the official's feet.
"Usually"? Yes. But I've called playoff games with officials who didn't get there by virtue of their field work.
C'mon Al?? C'mon Stripes, this official made a call that is basically bringing the hounds of hell down around his ears, and you want to add "flag tossing accuracy" to the charges.
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Come on Mike, there is no anti-Christian bias, there is simply a difference of opinion. It is your opinion that that action is not a foul, others think differently. People can disagree without having their motives questioned.
The way I read it, no one is saying the act is wrong for it's religious nature, they are saying the act is wrong because in performing the act where he performed it, he was bringing attention to himself-even if his intentions were noble.
that's what is funny about this situation.
The attention is being drawn to God, not to the player. What some people don't like is that attention is drawn to a player who is drawing attention to God.
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Re: flag throwing.
I like the situations in the NFL of a DPI.
The calling official usually hits the Point of Foul with a half-yard.
It's even funnier when there are 3-4 flags all landing at the Point of Foul.
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Really? That flag should either be dropped on the ground at the covering official's feet, or tossed directly above the covering official's head (depending on your supervisor's preference). There's no need whatsoever for an overhand toss on this play.
What I now realised I failed to convey in my previous post was that the angle at which the flag comes down, seems to indicate to me that it was tossed up in the air by the covering official. It does not look to me that an overhand throw occurred. In fact, if the official had made an overhand throw, the official would have had to be either standing on a skylift or he had to be about 12 foot tall.
Like I said, this is what it looks like to me. Some comments made it sound as if the official had been overhanding it directly at the player, which I didn't agree with.
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I think Mike has a valid point about bias. I am not religious, and so I guess I don't see a difference in this sort of an action and just a player holding up his hand for an 'I'm #1'.
Seems to me if you are that religious, you would believe as it is written that God is in all things, so why bother pointing to something in particular - why point up to the sky? This gesture can be misinterpreted.
I also think that if a deity is that important to the player, they will be able to wait the short time to get somewhere out of the limelight to make their thanks. By preforming a religious gesture in the end zone the player is drawing attention to themselves.
I wouldn't flag it as it was kept very short, and I have been told to lighten up a little. I do believe it fits the description of drawing attention to oneself, but not that it is delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed (as such).
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Good question.
Speaking captain or not the kick off time is the kick off time and should not be held up for smoko, religion or even a wee break. If he isnt out there with the rest of them on time then too bad. It has nothing to do with faith or other of these things but rather organisation and time tabling of events. That is part of the rules of the game and for us to manage the game.
Most deities are atemporal. Pray earlier.
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If the kid ran through the end zone in exuberance for the same length of time he was on a knee, how many of you would flag that "delay" in getting the ball back. I doubt any of you would. I wonder how much secularism or downright anti-Christian bias is affecting some folk's decisions here.
It's not anti-Christian bias to enforce a rule. Especially when the player, while blowing out the other team apparently (which oddly enough is not addressed much in this thread), brings attention to himself. The fact that the player is Christian is meaningless to me. I'm on the field to officiate, not be a missionary.
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You did not answer the question. If he took the same amount of time to run through the end zone as he did for this momentary kneel, would you flag?
This happened early in the game, long before it was a blowout, which may be why it is not discussed. It is immaterial.
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You did not answer the question. If he took the same amount of time to run through the end zone as he did for this momentary kneel, would you flag?
This happened early in the game, long before it was a blowout, which may be why it is not discussed. It is immaterial.
Then good. The officials may have nipped the problem in the bud. We can go down the rabbit hole, would you flag, under NF rules, chestbumps? They don't take long...in fact they are over by the time the player took a knee and got up. If the score was 34 - 7, yes I would flag it.
Actually, when he took the knee, that was the 34th point. The opposing team might have only had 7 points at the time.
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I am never penalizing a "chest bump", I don't care what the score is. Are you saying that you would permit some "unsportsmanlike" (in your mind) acts depending on the score?
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Absolutely, score is one of many circumstances that can determine whether some behavior warrants a talking to, a flag or deciding to ignore it..
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Absolutely, score is one of many circumstances that can determine whether some behavior warrants a talking to, a flag or deciding to ignore it..
That is exactly the point I was trying to make.
TxMike -- as to the chest-bump, I would flag that (or at least a stern warning on the first, flag on the second). As soon as you give an inch, they take a foot. If you let the chest-bump go, then the next player is going to take it to the next level. And that is how officials lose control of games -- letting certain stuff slide and then wondering what went wrong...
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If he took the same amount of time to run through the end zone as he did for this momentary kneel, would you flag?
Again, I do not have any issue with what the player in the original situation did- I commend him for kneeling and giving thanks. But why does he need to do it in the end zone, if not to draw attention to his action, and therefore to himself?
Without additional context though, I find it hard to fault the official who threw this flag in the original situation for his action, nor would I find fault with the official if he did not. Similarly, it would be hard for me to fault an official who flagged a person for running through the end zone, or to fault him if he didn't.
Without seeing a specific example of the type you mention, it is hard to say for sure. Each act should be judged individually, in the context of the game. I would never say that I would always flag that action, but I would also never say never either. Even a chest bump, in certain situations, could be viewed as excesive.
Based on your description, I would probably not flag the player for running through the end zone, but there is a lot of information that is missing. Was he running through the end zone toward his sideline, or his teammates, or perhaps toward an official to give him the ball?
Was he waving his arms or doing anything else to draw attention to himself? Was he running toward the other team, or their bench, or away from everyone toward an open area?
If in my judgment, it was any of the first part, probably not. If he was doing things in the second part, then I would at least consider it.
There are few absolutes in these situations, that's why we are asked to apply our judgment. It is assumed that with experience, the official's judgment improves. (and why in most cases, the most experienced officials work the bigger games). If you take judgment out of the equation, by using "always" and "never" than anyone could work those games.
It is certainly possible that throwing the flag may have been an overreaction or hypertechnical application of the rules. But it is also possible that by throwing that flag, it prevented an escalation of oneupsmanship.
If, as was stated earlier, this was early in the game, perhaps it was a good idea to establish boundaries. Taking the religious aspect out of it, flagging this act for taking place in the end zone, hopefully prevents other acts from occurring in the end zone.
If it occurs later in the game, had you previously warned the player not to do these kinds of things? Had there been other acts leading up to this?
We just don't know from the information available, but all of those issues could have an impact on whether or not I throw the flag in this particular situation.
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Clearly we are coming at this from 2 diff rulebooks. Having never reffed under Fed rules I am unable to understand the context that some of you are coming from. It is interesting though at how divided even you fed guys are.
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I think it is safe to say if we flagged run of the mill chest bumps around here we'd be relegated to 7th Grade C games only.
I'm frankly pretty surprised to read that VALinesman but clearly the expectation is different between our areas.
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Clearly we are coming at this from 2 diff rulebooks. Having never reffed under Fed rules I am unable to understand the context that some of you are coming from. It is interesting though at how divided even you fed guys are.
It is quite interesting....Thankfully it is easier to access the NCAA rulebook online than the fed. It's wierd. But I have certainly learned alot about NCAA rules from you and other posters. If I ever make the change, you guys have certainly made the job easier for me....
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That is exactly the point I was trying to make.
TxMike -- as to the chest-bump, I would flag that (or at least a stern warning on the first, flag on the second). As soon as you give an inch, they take a foot. If you let the chest-bump go, then the next player is going to take it to the next level. And that is how officials lose control of games -- letting certain stuff slide and then wondering what went wrong...
Last I read, celebration with your teammates is still legal (and encouraged). It's the self aggrandizing that is a foul. Lets let them be kids for crying out loud.
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Last I read, celebration with your teammates is still legal (and encouraged). It's the self aggrandizing that is a foul. Lets let them be kids for crying out loud.
I think that you are simplifying the situation. If that is the case, would you let them jump up and down in the endzone? It's not about kids being kids, it's about sportsmanship, and there is a difference.
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Clearly we are coming at this from 2 diff rulebooks. Having never reffed under Fed rules I am unable to understand the context that some of you are coming from. It is interesting though at how divided even you fed guys are.
In some respects the NFHS rules seem to allow the judgment of the field officials a lot more leeway and jurisdiction than NCAA rules. Perhaps that's partially due to the fact NFHS rules are specifically designed for seconday school athletes, usually below age 19, and the game at that level is often seen as more of an educational experience than a means unto itself.
Whereas NCAA games, and rule interpretations, are intended to apply to a far more global audience of participants, requiring a higher level of uniformity, HS football's focus is generally more localized and rarely extends beyond the individual State level, other than occassional All-Star games, which may involve their own adjusted rule interpretations.
Heavier reliance on individual judgment inevitably contributes to a greater level of what boils down to a difference of opinion, or what some might considered a lower level of consistency between disparate regions.
As a game, football involves direct physical contact between players who range between ages 6 and 60. Considering the amount of physical contact involved, it's no surprise there would be different rules codes (NFHS, NCAA, NFL) to address the obvious differences in skills and capabilities between age groups.
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FWIW, I've got no problem with this action, and I've got no problem with a chest bump, either. Nobody in our association would flag the point to the sky, and I don't think very many in our association would flag a routine chest bump, either.
Different strokes for different folks, even in Virginia.
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Amen to that! No wonder the Civil War is so big over there. The difference between the communists in Northern Virginia and the decent folks in the rest of the state is striking!
(Edited to fix the grammar)
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Amen to that! No wonder the Civil War is so big over there. The difference between the communists in Northern Virginia and the decent folks in the rest of the state are striking!
LOL! Great post!
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I'm an atheist but I wouldn't flag it - we are fairly liberal on celebration after a score. Mind you next season - a USC would negate the TD.
One thing I am amazed at - and no one has mentioned it - why did the officials not blow the play dead at 0.17 ? #35 green/white clearly has no helmet on - going for the sack on the QB - and again at 0.23 he's still running trying around to make another tackle.
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Ball becomes dead only if teh runner's helmet comes off. If others lose theirs, play continues.
This act would not negate the TD as it was after the score . It will only negate TDs when foul is before the score
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Only the runner ? I assumed it was anyone on the field - I'll have to revise my on field action on that one - I wondered why no one was picking up on it :)
DOH ! - yep USC after the score. My bad.
I believe you had a milestone birthday last month Mike that went unnoticed on here ?
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Nope, no birthday for me last month.
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Ball becomes dead only if teh runner's helmet comes off. If others lose theirs, play continues.
Hate to pick at nits, but it's ball carrier's. It does make a difference.
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Only the runner ? I assumed it was anyone on the field - I'll have to revise my on field action on that one - I wondered why no one was picking up on it :)
Don't be assuming, be knowing. aWaRd
4-1-3-q
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
q. When a ball carrier’s helmet comes completely off.
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The language is somewhat different under the NFHS code. NF:4-2-2-k: "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended (k) When the helmet comes completely off a player who is in possession of the ball.".
This seems to also exclude that part of the definition of a "Runner" that includes, "a player.....simulating possession of a live ball".
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Amen to that! No wonder the Civil War is so big over there. The difference between the communists in Northern Virginia and the decent folks in the rest of the state is striking!
(Edited to fix the grammar)
LOL
And the part that I really find funny is that, according to the locals, I'm a "damnyankee", having been born in Mass. and grown up in Chicago.
Of course, the difference between a "yankee" and a "damnyankee" is that the yankee goes home.
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LOL
And the part that I really find funny is that, according to the locals, I'm a "damnyankee", having been born in Mass. and grown up in Chicago.
Of course, the difference between a "yankee" and a "damnyankee" is that the yankee goes home.
Try being an ex-Californian in Texas... pi1eOn