Excessive Celebration ??

[bitols]

...what if...not a "religious issue" but a total private thing ? See this (soccer) picture: the player had just scored in the world cup final. He's pointing sky remembering his mother who die when he was teen...

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/78975535.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892155F29F61288AC1CADDAFB46F328CF35C04DFF8923534C6AF568511C3B9AAAD6D

[TXMike]

CFO GUIDELINES ON UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS

Player behavior in committing unsportsmanlike conduct fouls continues to be a major point of emphasis for the NCAA Football Rules Committee and the CFO Board of Managers. Recognizing these fouls and enforcing the penalties place our officials in a difficult situation. It is the nature of the business to be criticized, and it seems especially true when we try to apply the relevant rules (Rule 9-2-1). These are judgment calls, as are all the decisions officials make during the action of the game. 

            As officials apply their judgment, perhaps these guidelines will be helpful:

Remember that the game is one of high emotion, played by gifted teenagers who are affirmed by playing a game at which they are exceptionally talented.

Do not be overly technical in applying this rule.

Do allow for brief spontaneous emotional reactions at the end of a play.

Beyond the brief, spontaneous bursts of energy, officials should flag those acts that are clearly prolonged, self-congratulatory, and that make a mockery of the game.

A list of specifically prohibited acts is in (a) thru (h) on FR-122,123; this list is intended to be illustrative and not exhaustive.  We can all agree that when these acts are clearly intended to taunt or demean, they should not be allowed—not only because they are written in the book, but because they offend our sense of how the game should be played.  We now have enough experience with this rule to know what “feels” right and wrong. Note that most if not all of these actions fall outside the category of brief, spontaneous outbursts.  Rather, they present themselves as taunting, self-glorification, demeaning to opponents, or showing disrespect to the opponents and the game.

When such a situation arises, officials should wait a count, take a deep breath, and assess what they feel about what they have seen. 

            If it feels OK, let it go.  

            If it feels wrong, flag it. 

It will never be possible to be totally specific in writing what should and should not be allowed.  But we trust our officials to be men of good judgment who know in their hearts what should and should not be allowed in the heat of an emotional game.

 

Rogers Redding

NCAA Secretary-Rules Editor

 

David Parry

CFO National Coordinator

[GAHSUMPIRE]

Mike, the only thing that gets me on that is the word "spontaneous".  To me, that means unplanned.  The act in question, while brief, and I would be ok classifying it as an emotional reaction, to me, does not seem spontaneous at all. Especially if he had done it 17 times before.

Just because it was never flagged before, doesn't mean it wasn't a foul then or isn't a foul now.

[OnlyRefFB]

As much as I appreciate it, the rulebook doesn't require a player to hand the ball to an official.

Also, as much as the No Fun League has restricted player celebrations, even going to the ground, they have consistently allowed kneeling for a quick prayer.

The act was not delayed as the player acted immediately after entering the end zone and stopping. It wasn't prolonged as the potential UNS act itself was extremely brief. The only justification for UNS is that it was excessive, and if that's considered excessive by any supervisor, then I can justifiable flag just about anything a player does after a play short of returning to his huddle/sideline.

[TXMike]

If the kid ran through the end zone in exuberance for the same length of time he was on a knee, how many of you would flag that "delay" in getting the ball back. I doubt any of you would.  I wonder how much secularism or downright anti-Christian bias is affecting  some folk's decisions here.

[bama_stripes]

Where and how he threw his flag is nit-picking to the Nth degree.

Not for those of us who are trying to get better.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

If the kid ran through the end zone in exuberance for the same length of time he was on a knee, how many of you would flag that "delay" in getting the ball back. I doubt any of you would.  I wonder how much secularism or downright anti-Christian bias is affecting  some folk's decisions here.

Come on Mike, there is no anti-Christian bias, there is simply a difference of opinion. It is your opinion that that action is not a foul, others think differently. People can disagree without having their motives questioned.

The way I read it, no one is saying the act is wrong for it's religious nature, they are saying the act is wrong because in performing the act where he performed it, he was bringing attention to himself-even if his intentions were noble.


 

[TXMike]

The reason I say thay is because the weak excuses I am hearing for the call suggest they are just looking for something to hang their hats on without perhaps stating the real (even if unconciously real) reason.

[AlUpstateNY]

Not for those of us who are trying to get better.

I've looked at this tape several times and I can't see the flag being thrown.  I can see it land, but I don't know if it was thrown in the air and the wind took it, slipped out of his hand or was just a lousy toss. 

Isn't this from a post-season game?  Is it reasonable to assume that such assignments are usually given to experienced officials AND doesn't every official who has been doing this for a while understand flags aren't thrown at players. 

Secularism and anti-Christian bias is really looking for ghosts.  This was a flag a lot of officials would not have thrown without there being certain assumptions, which have been clearly and repeatedly stated.  The problem is a lot of those assumptions are simply unknown.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

The reason I say thay is because the weak excuses I am hearing for the call suggest they are just looking for something to hang their hats on without perhaps stating the real (even if unconciously real) reason.

I will not pretend to know the subconscious minds of the officials on this board, but I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[TXMike]

It was in a dome. That must be one strong-a__ air conditioning system!

[Osric Pureheart]

A Muslim prayer requires much more than that.  It would require so much that it wopuld move into the "prolonged" category and be illegal.

I have a question.  If you're going to allow Christians to celebrate with a prayer gesture but not Muslims, is there not a freedom of religion issue here?  Especially considering you may be dealing with institutions that are be funded by the government?

I can just see a lawyer somewhere hearing about this hypothetical and sending off for a luxury yacht catalogue so that he can be fully prepared if it ever happens...

[bama_stripes]

I've looked at this tape several times and I can't see the flag being thrown.  I can see it land, but I don't know if it was thrown in the air and the wind took it, slipped out of his hand or was just a lousy toss. 

Cmon, Al.  It's a torpedo flag, and it was obviously thrown with an overhand toss.  After looking at the play again, and seeing the player move toward the official, I'd bet the official meant for it to land at the player's feet, rather than hitting him.  Regardless, it's unnecessary -- the flag can simple be dropped at the official's feet.

Isn't this from a post-season game?  Is it reasonable to assume that such assignments are usually given to experienced officials AND doesn't every official who has been doing this for a while understand flags aren't thrown at players. 

"Usually"? Yes.  But I've called playoff games with officials who didn't get there by virtue of their field work.

[AlUpstateNY]

Cmon, Al.  It's a torpedo flag, and it was obviously thrown with an overhand toss.  After looking at the play again, and seeing the player move toward the official, I'd bet the official meant for it to land at the player's feet, rather than hitting him.  Regardless, it's unnecessary -- the flag can simple be dropped at the official's feet.
"Usually"? Yes.  But I've called playoff games with officials who didn't get there by virtue of their field work.

C'mon Al??  C'mon Stripes, this official made a call that is basically bringing the hounds of hell down around his ears, and you want to add "flag tossing accuracy" to the charges.

 

[JugglingReferee]

Come on Mike, there is no anti-Christian bias, there is simply a difference of opinion. It is your opinion that that action is not a foul, others think differently. People can disagree without having their motives questioned.

The way I read it, no one is saying the act is wrong for it's religious nature, they are saying the act is wrong because in performing the act where he performed it, he was bringing attention to himself-even if his intentions were noble.

that's what is funny about this situation.

The attention is being drawn to God, not to the player.  What some people don't like is that attention is drawn to a player who is drawing attention to God.

[JugglingReferee]

Re: flag throwing.

I like the situations in the NFL of a DPI.

The calling official usually hits the Point of Foul with a half-yard.

It's even funnier when there are 3-4 flags all landing at the Point of Foul.

[Christian]

Really?  That flag should either be dropped on the ground at the covering official's feet, or tossed directly above the covering official's head (depending on your supervisor's preference).  There's no need whatsoever for an overhand toss on this play.

What I now realised I failed to convey in my previous post was that the angle at which the flag comes down, seems to indicate to me that it was tossed up in the air by the covering official. It does not look to me that an overhand throw occurred. In fact, if the official had made an overhand throw, the official would have had to be either standing on a skylift or he had to be about 12 foot tall.

Like I said, this is what it looks like to me. Some comments made it sound as if the official had been overhanding it directly at the player, which I didn't agree with.

[James]

I think Mike has a valid point about bias. I am not religious, and so I guess I don't see a difference in this sort of an action and just a player holding up his hand for an 'I'm #1'.

Seems to me if you are that religious, you would believe as it is written that God is in all things, so why bother pointing to something in particular - why point up to the sky? This gesture can be misinterpreted.

I also think that if a deity is that important to the player, they will be able to wait the short time to get somewhere out of the limelight to make their thanks. By preforming a religious gesture in the end zone the player is drawing attention to themselves.

I wouldn't flag it as it was kept very short, and I have been told to lighten up a little. I do believe it fits the description of drawing attention to oneself, but not that it is delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed (as such).

[110]

Good question.
Speaking captain or not the kick off time is the kick off time and should not be held up for smoko, religion or even a wee break. If he isnt out there with the rest of them on time then too bad. It has nothing to do with faith or other of these things but rather organisation and time tabling of events. That is part of the rules of the game and for us to manage the game.

Most deities are atemporal. Pray earlier.

[VALinesman]

If the kid ran through the end zone in exuberance for the same length of time he was on a knee, how many of you would flag that "delay" in getting the ball back. I doubt any of you would.  I wonder how much secularism or downright anti-Christian bias is affecting  some folk's decisions here.

It's not anti-Christian bias to enforce a rule. Especially when the player, while blowing out the other team apparently (which oddly enough is not addressed much in this thread), brings attention to himself. The fact that the player is Christian is meaningless to me. I'm on the field to officiate, not be a missionary.

[TXMike]

You did not answer the question.  If he took the same amount of time to run through the end zone as he did for this momentary kneel, would you flag?

This happened early in the game, long before it was a blowout, which may be why it is not discussed.  It is immaterial. 

[VALinesman]

You did not answer the question.  If he took the same amount of time to run through the end zone as he did for this momentary kneel, would you flag?

This happened early in the game, long before it was a blowout, which may be why it is not discussed.  It is immaterial. 

Then good. The officials may have nipped the problem in the bud. We can go down the rabbit hole, would you flag, under NF rules, chestbumps? They don't take long...in fact they are over by the time the player took a knee and got up. If the score was 34 - 7, yes I would flag it.

Actually, when he took the knee, that was the 34th point. The opposing team might have only had 7 points at the time.

[TXMike]

I am never penalizing a "chest bump", I don't care what the score is.  Are you saying that you would permit some "unsportsmanlike" (in your mind) acts depending on the score?

[AlUpstateNY]

Absolutely, score is one of many circumstances that can determine whether some behavior warrants a talking to, a flag or deciding to ignore it.. 

[VALinesman]

Absolutely, score is one of many circumstances that can determine whether some behavior warrants a talking to, a flag or deciding to ignore it.. 

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

TxMike -- as to the chest-bump, I would flag that (or at least a stern warning on the first, flag on the second). As soon as you give an inch, they take a foot. If you let the chest-bump go, then the next player is going to take it to the next level. And that is how officials lose control of games -- letting certain stuff slide and then wondering what went wrong...