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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: blindref757 on August 10, 2011, 10:43:48 PM
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A couple of questions about them.
1. Where are they?
2. Are we using them for scrimmages across the state?
3. Are they going to be available for download so that we can print off a few to carry on Thursday?
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1. They just arrived in the TASO office from the printer
2. We are NOT using them for scrimmages.
3. A template will be made available to each chapter to post on their website and also on the TASO website.
The TASO office will distribute the cards to the chapter secretaries.
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Can you post the template?
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1. They just arrived in the TASO office from the printer
2. We are NOT using them for scrimmages.
3. A template will be made available to each chapter to post on their website and also on the TASO website.
The TASO office will distribute the cards to the chapter secretaries.
Thanks!
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What I want to know is how am I supposed to keep up with these? Put them in my pocket? Great -- they'll be soaked and smudged. Let's say I have 3 subvar games needing 6 documents. 3 of the coaches don't have theirs ready, so I have to know how many to take out on the field. Finally, who, out of the 3, 4, or 5 officials assigned has this responsibility?
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i bet you get your pay sheet to the proper people so why should this be a tought thing to do. it keeps us out of trouble by being in a court room.
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This appears to be another solution in search of a problem.
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Downloaded form
Used them on my 2 scrimmages this week
Houston Chapter
tiphat:
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Did you find them on the TASO site? Where???
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I heard: the varsity cards are in the process of being shipped to each chapter and there will be a different card for SV that has 3 games on each side.
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This appears to be another solution in search of a problem.
Yep!
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Downloaded form
Used them on my 2 scrimmages this week
Houston Chapter
tiphat:
Why would you use at scrimages?
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The same thing happens in a scrimmage that happens in a game, so why not? We used them in our chapter, Pecan Valley, in all the scrimmages we covered this weekend.
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Why we are doing the cards?
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Good idea Cover you a...........
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The rule says for "games".
Hopefully some of our lawyer brethren will chime in and help folks understand just how insignificant this little form will be when it comes time for legal action. If anyone is sleeping better because they got this form signed you are just fooling yourself.
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i bet you get your pay sheet to the proper people so why should this be a tought thing to do. it keeps us out of trouble by being in a court room.
Its hard to respond to stupid comments, but I'll try:
1. I don't have 4-6 pay sheets at one game.
2. I've been officiating something in Texas since 1988 and at almost every game site (probably 1500+ at this point), I have filled one form out for the school and given it to them. In the rare cases I get a copy, its small enough to fold up and put away. Other places, I either got a check there or cash on the barrel-head.
3. I go to ONE person to fill out a sheet -- even if it takes talking to 3 or 4 to find out who that person is, but I don't have to get paperwork from those 3-4, and I certainly don't HAVE to keep up with what I get.
4. As a 10+ year litigation attorney, I can tell you that failure for the official to collect this sheet would not lead to any lawsuit. I know of no such lawsuit in Texas ever being filed, and Texas law would not look favorably on one.
This is another one of those deals that UIL wants done but doesn't want to do it, or put another way, doesn't want to HACK off the coaches in doing it, so they let the officials do the grunt work and be the fall guy. I'm sick and tired of this crap -- i.e. being told that UIL wants uniform rules, bench decorum rules, and all sorts of other things enforced but when a report is made outlining abuse of the rules, little or nothing is done. Take the San Antonio lawsuit and the events that lead to it: were the coaches involved sanctioned in any way by the UIL for being on the field? I don't know, but I would be shocked if they were.
This whole thing is stupid. Why can't the UIL require coaches to go online before every game and submit a certification? OR, better yet, certify at the beginning of the season that in all games players will be properly equipped? Your assumption that this will keep us out of court, even if correct, doesn't speak to the issue of there being MUCH better ways to accomplish the same thing.
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Right on yEs:
I just can't believe wht the schools can't certify by e-mail, computer of fax to Big Brother before contests :bOW
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This is a NCAA rule, not just a UIL thing, major college conferences have to do sometype of paperwork, either way I'm just ready to be on the field calling games. Hopefully others feel this way. Good luck everyone.
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I haven't heard a peep about having to do this for sub-varsity games. I'll be sure to bring this up at our next meeting.
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I haven't heard a peep about having to do this for sub-varsity games. I'll be sure to bring this up at our next meeting.
Your district rep should address (or should have) this at your district meeting. We were informed that all levels must have a card signed.
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Ah, that makes sense then. I missed the district meeting but will be attending the makeup.
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This is the card....for now.... No guarantee that UIL will not come up with something else they will require be used but in the absence of anything from them...this is what we are going with
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I notice that only a TASO logo appears on that card. Further proof that UIL is forcing us to fall on the sword "for the good of the game?" You know by about the third game of the season, coaches are going to be sick of these and stop having them ready. Then, when we have to hound them for it, they see that logo and think "Oh great, here go the OFFICIALS with their stupid power trips again...making me do more work to satisfy their ridiculous demands!"
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If the word TASO becomes an issue, there is a form on the UIL website as well that is for the coaches to sign.
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the UIL form
http://www.uiltexas.org/files/athletics/forms/Football_Game_Equipment_Certification.pdf (http://www.uiltexas.org/files/athletics/forms/Football_Game_Equipment_Certification.pdf)
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While the UIL is shorter, I like the TASO version better because it includes the sideline statement.
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I notice that only a TASO logo appears on that card. Further proof that UIL is forcing us to fall on the sword "for the good of the game?" You know by about the third game of the season, coaches are going to be sick of these and stop having them ready. Then, when we have to hound them for it, they see that logo and think "Oh great, here go the OFFICIALS with their stupid power trips again...making me do more work to satisfy their ridiculous demands!"
They'll get used to it. This has been done by several referees in Texas for years. I worked in Oklahoma about 10 years ago and most of my white hats did it as well...for personal reasons, not because someone made them. It is a new thing that someone will probably complain about, but if that's what it takes to play football, they'll gladly sign and we will both adapt to it. Within a few years, it will be just one of those things we do.
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Can anyone from any state confirm the existence of any lawsuit filed by a player or family member for illegal equipment injuries?
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If the word TASO becomes an issue, there is a form on the UIL website as well that is for the coaches to sign.
I stand corrected and I wish to withdraw my prior statement.
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Can anyone from any state confirm the existence of any lawsuit filed by a player or family member for illegal equipment injuries?
May not be one Brad, but since NCAA has made the rule if we do not secure written verification it could become an issue. I know there are some attorneys on this board and I am friends with a couple of them. But damn lawyers!!!!!!!!
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Although this "burden" has been put on the officials, I do not think its point is to insulate officials from lawsuits or direct officials to be more vigilant regarding proper equipment. I think the point is to make the COACHES aware of equipment issues, and make the COACHES emphasize proper equipment use. At the end of the day, from the an official's perspective, much ado about nothing.
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Since the turn of this century, the NCAA football rules have been written almost exclusively for college football, with major emphasis on FBS football. I assure you, the written coach's certification rule has nothing to do with making them aware of squat. At that level, they are aware. The fact that uniform & equipment issues are such an annoyance to them clearly proves it. The new rule is soley there to provide some ammunition for the NCAA, in particular, and officials, in the event of a legal action. It may not preclude or prevent a lawsuit, but it is intended to reinforce the fact that the institutions are responsible for the actions of the players and athletics staffs with regard to the provision and proper use of uniform and equipment. It may not be the "be all-end all" instrument that we'd all like to have, but it is better than nothing, or the previous procedure.
The fact that the NCAA developed a standardized form that the coaches can sign quickly and move on is a blessing.
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I'm just wondering if TASO will be renting a storage building to store all these cards that we send in.
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Can anyone from any state confirm the existence of any lawsuit filed by a player or family member for illegal equipment injuries?
^flag
I guess I'm going have to invoke the "first-time for everything" argument. And with the legal community needing to do something to generate revenue/hours to stay in business, someone in their midst will, no doubt, offer representation to affected clients, thus turning them into viable litigants. And I can't argue with their modus operandi because I feel that a majority of those lawsuits that are actually filed end up having some merit to them. To that end, I don't want to see TASO or any of it's membership having to sit in a courtroom well designated as a defendent. And if you don't believe that something like this won't happen, then try asking those unfortunate vindicated San Antonio football officials that endured nothingmore than sheer hell as the defendents in the case where the assistant coach was run into while being out on the field.
Bravo for TASO for having the cajones in taking the initiative to do this. The Manor Road :bOW Step-and- Fetch-Its may have very well came up with and posted some kind of a brief slick presentation to that effect up on it's website, but other than that token bit of lip service of theirs, it's all too apparent that they haven't done a solitary thing about actually implementing anything of this nature. I would probably imagine it's all because they've either just been way too busy trying to destroy TASO in order to promote its own selfish agenda, or in trying to get all of those 2011 State Championship Football Games successfully scheduled over there at JerryWorld! Go figure! z^
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I'm just wondering if TASO will be renting a storage building to store all these cards that we send in.
Jason, I would imagine TASO wants nothing to do with these signed cards. It will be up to each R to keep track of them. I might have a pocket designated for signed cards in my equipment bag, but I'm sure I will lose about half of them. What good does it do then?
A much more logical approach would be to have each coach sign a form at the beginning of the year stating they understand the equipment requirements concerning their players, send those signed forms in to the chapters and let them file them away. One form could be used for the entire season, not one for every game. That's really overkill. I bet half of our officials never even do this at the sub varsity level.
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Heck scan them and keep them on the puter in a file marked CYA...................... ;D
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The protocol, last I knew, was for Chapters to collect and forward to TASO HQ. I am not aware of any plans by anyone to verify that cards were submitted for any and all games assigned
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These cards are for our protection. Will it absolve us from any liability? I do not think any of us can answer that. That would be up to the judge or jury.
Some of the rationale I heard was in the event of legal action, the question would be: "is there a rule and/or policy regarding coaches written certification."
You can twist it any way you want.
Hopefully, there will be a better solution forthcoming.
Isn't there something called the paperwork reduction act?
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I think the form falls short. Need a larger form with a place for every parent to sign stating they understand the violent nature of football and absolve officials of all liability. Make sure you have the attendants parents signature too. Make sure to bring a notary public to attest to the validity of the signature. >:D
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TASO form:
http://www.intra-focus.com/taso/docs/TASO%20Coaches%20Certification.pdf (http://www.intra-focus.com/taso/docs/TASO%20Coaches%20Certification.pdf)
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These cards are for our protection. Will it absolve us from any liability? I do not think any of us can answer that. That would be up to the judge or jury.
Some of the rationale I heard was in the event of legal action, the question would be: "is there a rule and/or policy regarding coaches written certification."
You can twist it any way you want.
Hopefully, there will be a better solution forthcoming.
Isn't there something called the paperwork reduction act?
Mike, for our chapter, this will mean somewhere around 4,000 signed cards to keep track of by the end of the season.
Does anyone really think this is realistic? Houston may have upwards of 10,000. How would anyone even expect to find a card in a stack that large?
The plan to send these in needs to be rethought.
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The certification cards are to be turned into your chapter secretary, who will in turn forward them on to the TASO office. There, the cards will be scanned and put on file. In the perfect world, this would be done by all chapters and a member of each crew working a game from 7th grade through Varsity. However, with us not being in the perfect world, I would guess that only about half, if that, of the games worked have cards turned in for them. The main reason for this is as some have previously and correctly posted, is to CYA!!!
Whether it is done or not is up to each "crew" working a game. I can state that I WILL NOT work a game, at any level, where I don't have the coaches involved sign a certification card.....just sayin.....
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The guidance I recall hearing several times in july if no sign was.... "Work the game and do a UIL incident report."
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Heck we used to keep track of the foul reports in the days before scanners ( back when NCAA gave a crap about what we thought).
We will manage to keep trackof these certification cards. I would venture to say that the rule will be mysteriously gone within the next rule book writing.
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The certification cards are to be turned into your chapter secretary, who will in turn forward them on to the TASO office. There, the cards will be scanned and put on file. In the perfect world, this would be done by all chapters and a member of each crew working a game from 7th grade through Varsity. However, with us not being in the perfect world, I would guess that only about half, if that, of the games worked have cards turned in for them. The main reason for this is as some have previously and correctly posted, is to CYA!!!
Whether it is done or not is up to each "crew" working a game. I can state that I WILL NOT work a game, at any level, where I don't have the coaches involved sign a certification card.....just sayin.....
^flag
I couldn't agree more! In properly using these TASO/NCAA cards, as I see it, it squarely places the UIL on the defensive in that TASO has taken the initiative to have these rules enforced whether they like it or not. It was brought to my attention that the UIL had earlier issued some form of written dispensation to the effect that coaches would not be required to sign off on any kind of statements regarding player equipment for preseason scrimmages in that the :bOW Manor Road Crowd did not consider these to be games, and that only the playing of actual games would be meritorious of equipment approval by the coaches.
Now not being exactly the most studious legal scholar to come down the pike, I can't help but feel that at one of these scrimmages, if Lil' Johnny irreparably tears up some part of his body because his coach feels that those :bOW Manor Road Minions are truely correct in their assessment that this is not a game, and therefore not applicable, then Mr. Big Johnny(Lil' Johnny's dad) is certainly going to have his stinger out and will be looking for a place to put it. The first people that he'll no doubt go after will be the Stripes because they should have enforced the equipment rules. Well, by TASO's participation in this equipment enforcement, it will somewhat offer insulation to the Stripes and to TASO because TASO did the correct thing and tried to enforce those rules. So now Mr. Big Johnny has no other deep pockets to go after other than the Head Coach, the AD, and the School District Superintendent, to pay for those gargantuan hospital bills. Sure, he can go after the officials and after TASO if he wants, but by their stance, they're going to be somewhat absolved from prosecution. And then he could even take it a step higher and go after the :bOW Wizards of Id parked on their lofty thrones up there on Manor Road if he remotely thinks that their pockets or their liability insurance might offer a little deeper reserve to draw from. The problem with that is that if thrown into the courtroom as defendents in this matter, the :bOW Manor Roadians will, no doubt, attempt to plea out "that they are a state agency and are therefore immune from prosecution and from lawsuits!"
I firmly believe that Mr. Fitch acted judiciously earlier today when he issued the directive that if the coaches in any way refused to sign those TASO equipment cards at the scrimmages, that the officials were to simply tell them that it against TASO policy and procedure to offer coverage for that scrimmage and that, without their submission and their signature, that they will be working without TASO football officials for that scrimmage.
In essence, this prescribed TASO action would squarely place the :bOW Manor Road Minions between the proverbial rock pi1eOn and a hard place! z^
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You are misreading Fitch's words. He is not saying they have to sign the cards for scrimmages. he is just sayng if the players are not legally equipped we are not working the scrimmages.
Again, the cards were created because of the NCAA rule change. The rule change says "game". How many guys who have worked college practices this Summer have had forms signed? We lose NO protection by not having these things signed before scrimmages but we really don't get any protection by having them signed before games either. You see a player illegally equipped, deal with it.
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A very valid point, Mike! I stand corrected! z^
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This lawsuit stuff is absolute nonsense, if not idiocy. There are only 2 scenarios for harm: failure to wear required equipment and wearing illegal equipment. In terms of the both, we're only required to make a REASONABLE effort to determine any player's status. Did you let him play without a helmet? Well, yeah, that's going to be a problem. Did you slap every kid on the backside to make sure he has his tailbone pad in? No, and no reasonable person would require you to. Did you tell that kid to take his spiked bracelet off? You better. Did you know that kid had something he shouldn't have had under his uniform? Again, no reasonable person is going to require you to do a strip search before the game.
The card means nothing. We will never be held responsible for something we can't reasonably be expected to deal with. On the other hand, we are STILL responsible for things we can reasonably be expected to deal with. The coach's certification isn't going to get us off the hook for allowing a kid to play without a helmet (I know, stupid example but give me another one). My point is that this type of situation is the only one we'd get in trouble for anyway.
Besides, the earlier point about the notary is correct. How do I know the coach will put a correct name? 2 years later, I'm not going to remember who signed it.
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Yes there are idiots out there!!
Does anyone have anything on why the NCAA started this?
Since the rules committee is made up of coaches......I would like to have been a fly on the wall during this discussion.
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Can anyone post Mike Fitch's statement and/or the TASO and UIL policy regarding signing the card.
There seems to be a question about what to do if a Coach refuses to sign. The rule states "The head coach or his designated representative shall certify in writing to the umpire before the game that all players:....."
I read that to mean we can't have a game without the signature. I've seen posted that if a Coach refuses to sign we are to play the game anyway and submit an incident report. This looks like an exception to 1-4-9.
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This is the statement I am aware of:
TO ALL CHAPTER PRESIDENTS and SECRETARIES
As we conclude the scrimmage season, let's be mindful of the TASO Policy concerning Mandatory Equipment at scrimmages:
“As officials, it is not our position or place to tell a school what they may or may not wear during a scrimmage. That decision is made by the head coach.
However, if a team’s players are not equipped according to rule, the officials should respectively notify the coach that it is TASO policy for our members not to participate in a scrimmage where players are not wearing mandatory equipment as outlined in the rules.”
Thanks,
Mike
Michael Fitch
Executive Director
Texas Association of Sports Officials
1221 West Campbell Road, Suite 191
Richardson, Texas 75080
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And FYI...the Texas Coaches Assn has this right on the front page of their website:
http://www.thsca.com/ (http://www.thsca.com/)
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And FYI...the Texas Coaches Assn has this right on the front page of their website:
http://www.thsca.com/ (http://www.thsca.com/)
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Hopefully, Mr. Fitch or Mr. Castleberry will forward post-haste the TASO version of this card on over to the the THSCA. The coaches and their administrators need to be made aware of the second provision that the UIL apparently just conveniently wishes to sidestep or blatently ignore! z^
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The problem is we (TASO) added that section without any actual rule support. It was being done in some parts of the state so the decision was made to do it statewide (or try to anyway). But if a coach shows up with the UIL form in hand and signed he has met the requirements of the rule.
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Sounds good to me TXMike! But the THSCA really needs to have some knowledge of it. Even if it is put out there as "bait" for the UIL to balk at and to, in all likelihood, ignore! z^
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Whether it is done or not is up to each "crew" working a game. I can state that I WILL NOT work a game, at any level, where I don't have the coaches involved sign a certification card.....just sayin.....
Cooper said today at the Corpus clinic that if the coach will not sign the card that we SHOULD play the game and then immediately file a UIL incident report. Do not penalize the kids for the actions of the adults. The UIL wants these cards to be signed and turned in.