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NCAA Discussion / Re: Variations on the quiz
« Last post by dammitbobby on June 10, 2026, 01:52:34 PM »That makes sense.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Variations on the quiz
« Last post by ElvisLives on June 10, 2026, 01:41:09 PM »Here's my thoughts.
3a - while we may have "banked" the potential foul for violating the 2x2 rule (since it's not a foul until the snap), IMO once we kill the clock to address the injured player, we should just 'reset' whatever was banked since we will now have a new RFP. Outside of any infractions that potentiallyrequire a runoff due to the injured player (NCAA, not Texas HS), A does not get any advantage here; any deception would be negated by being required to have A31 sit out at least one play.
Bobby, I don’t think Jim intended for the game officials to interrupt the game for an injury time out. This is simply a player being substituted - more like a player who just needs a ‘breather’ and wants to come out. If the game is interrupted by a referee’s time out, then the whole SKF and numbering exceptions process starts over. I believe Jim is trying to highlight the fact that the new rule language, in its current state, does not address the relationship between the new rule and the substitution rules. To put it simply: If, after the “2 X 2” is established, a “2 X 2” lineman then moves and departs the field, as a substitute enters the game in that vacated position, does that constitute a ‘change of position’ by the departing player, and is, thus, an illegal formation foul at the snap? Or, is that perfectly legal? Personally, I am of the opinion that this is just a standard - legal - substitution, but I do not (yet) have authoritative information on this issue. If I am able to get such information, I will certainly advise.
3b - By (the new) rule, the fact that A49 has his hands above his knees is irrelevant - the 2x2 is required as soon as he 'takes his position.' As soon as they were 2x2, with the snapper in position, they are numbering exceptions, and the new rule verbiage explicitly says that once they are established as exceptions, they may not shift or move to another position. Substituting is not addressed in the new rule language, and in the absence of a prohibitive rule to the contrary, my opinion is that it is legal to substitute within the 2x2. A doesn't really get an advantage here anyways since we would always give B the opportunity to match up.
4a - The initial lineup is not legal, since it is not a SKF, and numbering requirements apply. However, it's not a foul until the snap, and since they shift to to make a legal SKF, with no over infractions, I think this is allowed, and legal.
4b -unless the argument is that adjusting his position counts as a shift or a move to another position, I see this as legal. numbering rules aren't in effect until the 2x2 exists, and I don't see adjusting position as being enough movement to make it a shift.
4c - A70 is not part of the 2x2 and is not a numbering exception, therefor there are no restrictions on him shifting or being in motion to maintain the SKF.
4d - By definition, A33 is not a back (shoulders facing sideline, not opponents' goal line) so there are no requirements or restrictions on him, and there is not a SKF yet because there is no 2x2. The 2x2 requirements activate when A32 lines up, which then prohibits any shifts or moves to a different position, so when A31 - who is part of the 2x2 - moves into the shield, this is an ILS foul at the snap.
I'm sure I missing key elements here, feel free to pick my logic apart.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Variations on the quiz
« Last post by dammitbobby on June 10, 2026, 12:53:48 PM »Here's my thoughts.
3a - while we may have "banked" the potential foul for violating the 2x2 rule (since it's not a foul until the snap), IMO once we kill the clock to address the injured player, we should just 'reset' whatever was banked since we will now have a new RFP. Outside of any infractions that potentiallyrequire a runoff due to the injured player (NCAA, not Texas HS), A does not get any advantage here; any deception would be negated by being required to have A31 sit out at least one play.
3b - By (the new) rule, the fact that A49 has his hands above his knees is irrelevant - the 2x2 is required as soon as he 'takes his position.' As soon as they were 2x2, with the snapper in position, they are numbering exceptions, and the new rule verbiage explicitly says that once they are established as exceptions, they may not shift or move to another position. Substituting is not addressed in the new rule language, and in the absence of a prohibitive rule to the contrary, my opinion is that it is legal to substitute within the 2x2. A doesn't really get an advantage here anyways since we would always give B the opportunity to match up.
4a - The initial lineup is not legal, since it is not a SKF, and numbering requirements apply. However, it's not a foul until the snap, and since they shift to to make a legal SKF, with no over infractions, I think this is allowed, and legal.
4b -unless the argument is that adjusting his position counts as a shift or a move to another position, I see this as legal. numbering rules aren't in effect until the 2x2 exists, and I don't see adjusting position as being enough movement to make it a shift.
4c - A70 is not part of the 2x2 and is not a numbering exception, therefor there are no restrictions on him shifting or being in motion to maintain the SKF.
4d - By definition, A33 is not a back (shoulders facing sideline, not opponents' goal line) so there are no requirements or restrictions on him, and there is not a SKF yet because there is no 2x2. The 2x2 requirements activate when A32 lines up, which then prohibits any shifts or moves to a different position, so when A31 - who is part of the 2x2 - moves into the shield, this is an ILS foul at the snap.
I'm sure I missing key elements here, feel free to pick my logic apart.
3a - while we may have "banked" the potential foul for violating the 2x2 rule (since it's not a foul until the snap), IMO once we kill the clock to address the injured player, we should just 'reset' whatever was banked since we will now have a new RFP. Outside of any infractions that potentiallyrequire a runoff due to the injured player (NCAA, not Texas HS), A does not get any advantage here; any deception would be negated by being required to have A31 sit out at least one play.
3b - By (the new) rule, the fact that A49 has his hands above his knees is irrelevant - the 2x2 is required as soon as he 'takes his position.' As soon as they were 2x2, with the snapper in position, they are numbering exceptions, and the new rule verbiage explicitly says that once they are established as exceptions, they may not shift or move to another position. Substituting is not addressed in the new rule language, and in the absence of a prohibitive rule to the contrary, my opinion is that it is legal to substitute within the 2x2. A doesn't really get an advantage here anyways since we would always give B the opportunity to match up.
4a - The initial lineup is not legal, since it is not a SKF, and numbering requirements apply. However, it's not a foul until the snap, and since they shift to to make a legal SKF, with no over infractions, I think this is allowed, and legal.
4b -unless the argument is that adjusting his position counts as a shift or a move to another position, I see this as legal. numbering rules aren't in effect until the 2x2 exists, and I don't see adjusting position as being enough movement to make it a shift.
4c - A70 is not part of the 2x2 and is not a numbering exception, therefor there are no restrictions on him shifting or being in motion to maintain the SKF.
4d - By definition, A33 is not a back (shoulders facing sideline, not opponents' goal line) so there are no requirements or restrictions on him, and there is not a SKF yet because there is no 2x2. The 2x2 requirements activate when A32 lines up, which then prohibits any shifts or moves to a different position, so when A31 - who is part of the 2x2 - moves into the shield, this is an ILS foul at the snap.
I'm sure I missing key elements here, feel free to pick my logic apart.
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National Federation Discussion / Crazy scenario
« Last post by SCHSref on June 10, 2026, 11:38:54 AM »A is going for a two point try. After the snap, A11 hands off the ball to A21, who is hit at the 4 yard line and fumbles. The ball is at rest when B96 muffs the ball in an attempt to possess the ball. The muff causes the ball to get into the endzone, where B36 bats the ball through the back of the endzone. The covering official rules the muff going into the endzone was the result of a new force.
What are the two options A has concerning this play?
What are the two options A has concerning this play?
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Down and distance after dead ball foul prior to overtime.
« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on June 10, 2026, 11:00:05 AM »A 1st down could be achieved by a roughing foul (RTP,RTK,RTH, & RTS)or a bad FGA that is touched beyond the LOS by R and recovered by K.Understood, but they do not say that the chains will not be used. Or maybe an alternate would be that it's "always goal to go" unless a 1st down is awarded by penalty? IMHO that's pretty important to understanding the OT rules.
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NCAA Discussion / Variations on the quiz
« Last post by TxJim on June 10, 2026, 10:31:34 AM »Based on the new 2x2 rule verbiage and thinking, do we might have some holes with substitutions that require some interpretation, at least to accommodate what we will likely see happen here in a Texas HS game where we have a lot of two way players and perhaps a few loophole hunting coaches to catch off off our toes? Using Play 3 and 4 from the Shaw/Blandino 2026 Preseason Quiz 1.
3a. 4/10 @ B-45. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 2 X 2 formation with A33 and A27 to the left of snapper A49, and A8 and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box and A49 has his hands above his knees. A31 who participated in the previous play hand signals to his bench that he is now hurt. A32 comes onto the field as a substitute and takes the position held by A31. A49 snaps the ball and A94 kicks the ball through the end zone for a touchback. Ruling?
3b. 4/10 @ B-45. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 2 X 2 formation with A33 and A27 to the left of snapper A49, and A8 and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box and A49 has his hands above his knees. A8 and A31 who both participated in the previous play signal to be substituted. With plenty of time on the play clock, A58 and A51 come onto the field as substitutes replacing and taking the positions held by A8 and A31. A49 snaps the ball and A94 kicks the ball through the end zone for a touchback. Ruling?
4a. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A33, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. A33 then steps off the line and shifts to a position to the right of A31 to make a 2 x 2 formation. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
4b. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A33, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. Team A has only 10 players on the field. A32 comes onto the field and takes position immediately to the right of A49. A31 then adjusts his position to the right to accommodate A32 taking position but still inside the tackle box. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
4c. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A70, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. Team A has 10 players on the field. A32 comes onto the field and takes position immediately to the right of A49. A70 then takes a step off the line and shifts to the shield in the backfield. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
4d. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A33, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. A33 is standing upright with one foot in the tackle box with his shoulders facing his sideline 1 yard off the line of scrimmage, and the other four players are in the tackle box facing B’s goal line with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. Team A has 10 players on the field. A32 comes onto the field and takes position immediately to the right of A31 with a foot inside the tackle box with and his shoulders facing Team B’s goal line. A31 then shifts off the line and takes position on the shield in the backfield. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
3a. 4/10 @ B-45. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 2 X 2 formation with A33 and A27 to the left of snapper A49, and A8 and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box and A49 has his hands above his knees. A31 who participated in the previous play hand signals to his bench that he is now hurt. A32 comes onto the field as a substitute and takes the position held by A31. A49 snaps the ball and A94 kicks the ball through the end zone for a touchback. Ruling?
3b. 4/10 @ B-45. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 2 X 2 formation with A33 and A27 to the left of snapper A49, and A8 and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box and A49 has his hands above his knees. A8 and A31 who both participated in the previous play signal to be substituted. With plenty of time on the play clock, A58 and A51 come onto the field as substitutes replacing and taking the positions held by A8 and A31. A49 snaps the ball and A94 kicks the ball through the end zone for a touchback. Ruling?
4a. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A33, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. A33 then steps off the line and shifts to a position to the right of A31 to make a 2 x 2 formation. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
4b. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A33, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. Team A has only 10 players on the field. A32 comes onto the field and takes position immediately to the right of A49. A31 then adjusts his position to the right to accommodate A32 taking position but still inside the tackle box. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
4c. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A70, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. All five players are in the tackle box with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. Team A has 10 players on the field. A32 comes onto the field and takes position immediately to the right of A49. A70 then takes a step off the line and shifts to the shield in the backfield. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
4d. 4/10 @ A-35. With potential punter A94 lined up 12 yards behind the snapper, Team A does not have five linemen numbered 50-79 in the game. They line up in a 3 X 1 formation with A33, A27, and A8 to the left of snapper A49, and A31 to the right. A33 is standing upright with one foot in the tackle box with his shoulders facing his sideline 1 yard off the line of scrimmage, and the other four players are in the tackle box facing B’s goal line with no other teammates on the line of scrimmage within the tackle box. Team A has 10 players on the field. A32 comes onto the field and takes position immediately to the right of A31 with a foot inside the tackle box with and his shoulders facing Team B’s goal line. A31 then shifts off the line and takes position on the shield in the backfield. A49 snaps the ball to A94 who kicks the ball, and it goes out of bounds at the B-25. Ruling?
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Illegal Contact
« Last post by ElvisLives on June 10, 2026, 10:02:14 AM »So the penalty statement in the latest online book is wrong? "PENALTY—10 yards. Penalties for Team A fouls behind the neutral zone are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s goal line. [S43]."
Kalle, per 9-3-4, unless a defensive player is making an attempt to reach a runner, reach a ball loose ball, or ward off an opponent obviously attempting to block them, then they are bound by the same rules as offensive players with respect to using their hands and arms against an opponent. In the action described, B52 is doing none of those things, and is using his hands to “…illegally obstruct an opponent other than the runner.” The penalty is 10 yards (3 & 1, Basic Spot), plus an automatic first down.
It may also be an illegal block in the back, but, because this contact “…illegally obstruct(s) an opponent other than a runner…,” this action rises to the level of illegal use of hands/arms, which carries the automatic first down. This action is no different in effect than when a defensive player grasps an opponent - especially an eligible player - and restricts his free movement. A ‘pull and shoot’ is gets an automatic first down. A tackle of an offensive blocker to take him out of the play is an automatic first down. Equally, a block in the back simply to take a player out of the action - whether that is as a potential blocker for a runner or as a potential pass receiver - deserves the same penalty. 10 yards, and a first down.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Illegal Contact
« Last post by Stinterp on June 10, 2026, 09:02:57 AM »Illegal use of hands is equivelent to Defensive Holding. 9-3-4
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Illegal Contact
« Last post by Kalle on June 10, 2026, 07:20:33 AM »For the exact reasons you state, this is illegal use of hands, and includes an automatic first down.
So the penalty statement in the latest online book is wrong? "PENALTY—10 yards. Penalties for Team A fouls behind the neutral zone are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s goal line. [S43]."
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Illegal Contact
« Last post by ElvisLives on June 10, 2026, 06:44:23 AM »Players in this situation are also subject to the various blocking rules (9-3-3, 9-3-4, 9-3-5).
In this case, the contact is a foul for an Illegal Block in the Back (9-3-5) since B52 is not attempting to reach the ball or a ball carrier. 10 yards added to the end of A2's run. 3/1 @ A's39.
For the exact reasons you state, this is illegal use of hands, and includes an automatic first down.