You make the call?

[checkvalve]

2nd and 10 from A's 5 yd line.
QB drops back and passes from the end zone where R has roughing the passer against B2. LJ has intentional grounding. What is the correct enforcement?

[FLAHL]

Two live ball fouls - penalties offset, repeat the down.  Interesting though that the LJ called Intentional Grounding.  That's usually the R's call, although wing officials can let him know that there wasn't an eligible receiver in the area where the pass was thrown.

[maven]

What's the call? I'm calling over the LJ for a conversation about waving off his flag.

As FLAHL points out, that's not a wing's flag. And even if there are no receivers in the area, I'm probably cutting the passer more slack than usual.

If only the RTP is enforced, you go 15 from the previous spot, AFD. If we decide the IFP/IG is solid, it's a double foul.

[Curious]

What's the call? I'm calling over the LJ for a conversation about waving off his flag.

If it were my LJ, he'd be working somewhere else next week...

[checkvalve]

Ok....so how about the fact that RTP can only be called on a legal forward pass?

[maven]

Ok....so how about the fact that RTP can only be called on a legal forward pass?

Good point. If you're sticking with IFP/IG, you'll need to decide whether to (a) wave off the RTP for the reason given, or (b) downgrade it to a PF.

If you wave off the RTP, you're back to a single live-ball foul. The IFP in the EZ would be enforced as a safety. If you make it a PF, you still have a double foul.

All that said, I'd rather wave off IFP/IG than RTP, if for no other reason than the LJ really shouldn't be flagging IG.

[HLinNC]

Is this a real world play or make believe with unicorns and show ponies?

R's around here would take the LJ's flag away from him for throwing IG.

[Ralph Damren]

In pregame ,white hat to Zebra hurd : "I'll call all roughing/running into kicker fouls and intentional grounding. If there was an eligible reciever in the area, let me know and I'll eat the flag." Would hopefully send the message. We all have had a QB throw a pass to an area where no reciever was in site, the reasons could be : (1) the QB is a lousey passer; (2) the reciever and QB were running two different plays ; (3) the reciever tripped over his shoelaces and fell down; (4) the QB threw it there to kill the clock or avoid a sack. Only #4 is a foul and only the referee is is position to know.

[ECILLJ]

Ralph, I agree with you, but I know some referee's that want the wings to flag the intentional grounding on passes downfield.

Their reasoning is that they are focused on action near the QB and the wings are in a better position to determine if a receiver is in the vicinity. They would rather have a flag on the ground that may need waved, rather than not have a flag on the ground until after a Referee / Linesman conference.

[Curious]

In pregame ,white hat to Zebra hurd : "I'll call all roughing/running into kicker fouls and intentional grounding. If there was an eligible reciever in the area, let me know and I'll eat the flag."

There's an old story around these parts (not sure if it's actually "urban legend") about the R going to his wing-man to inquire why he threw his flag.  The response was "I have roughing the passer"; to which the R responded, "then I have offensive pass interference"...

[Atlanta Blue]

Ralph, I agree with you, but I know some referee's that want the wings to flag the intentional grounding on passes downfield.

Their reasoning is that they are focused on action near the QB and the wings are in a better position to determine if a receiver is in the vicinity. They would rather have a flag on the ground that may need waved, rather than not have a flag on the ground until after a Referee / Linesman conference.

Where does he throw his flag?  IG is a spot foul.  How can the wing who may be 8-10 yards downfield get his flag to the spot of the foul?  And if he's 8-10 yards downfield watching his keys, or even the ball, how does he know what kind of pressure the QB was under?  It's not a foul to throw a pass into an unoccupied area, it's a foul to do so to avoid a sack or loss of time.  Without seeing the QB, how does he know either one happened?

I understand having a flag that may need to be waived off rather than adding one later.  But it should be the R's flag that gets picked up IF there was a receiver who could have caught the pass (and not just "in the area"), not the wing's flag.

[dch]

AB,  I'm surprised by part of your previous post.  Rule 7.5.2d states that it is an illegal pass if intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.

Regarding the initial question of what to do with the "double foul" situation of intentional grounding AND roughing the passer --- those two fouls can not happen on the same play.  Roughing the passer fouls can only occur if a legal forward pass is thrown, and intentional grounding is not a legal forward pass.

Certainly the contact on the player that threw the ball may be a personal foul - just not roughing the passer.