Correctable Error?

[TXMike]

A - 1st and 10, QB throws a fwd pass to lineman A75.  A75 tries to catch it but drops it.  The crew penalizes 5 yds and LOD, bringing up 2d and 15.  Team A  throws an inc pass and now it is 3d and 15 but someone realizes the illegal touching play should not have had a LOD.  Do we take it back to 2d and 15 or leave at 3d and 15?   

B -  1st and 10, QB throws an illegal fwd pass while 1 yard beyond the NZ.  We penalize the 5 yards and repeat the down so it is then 1st and 14 .  They run an inc pass and now it is 2d and 14 but someone realizes the illegal fwd pass play should have also had a LOD.  Do we move it to 3d and 14 or leave at 2d and 14. 

[Legacy Zebra]

With replay, both are correctable during that series or before the ball is put in play for the next series. 12-3-5-d. Without replay, you can't change it once the ball is legally snapped for the next play.

[jg-me]

If these situations are correctable with replay, why would they not be in other games?

[Legacy Zebra]

Because 5-2-9 says "No rule decision may be changed after the ball is next legally
snapped, legally free-kicked or the second or fourth periods have ended". In both of the given scenarios, the ball had already been legally snapped before the attempted correction.

[jg-me]

In and of itself, I would have agreed with your interp of 5-2-9. However, given the very clear wording of 12-3-5-d, I'm quite sure RR would tell us to correct the number of down in any game if we have definite knowledge that the down is wrong and the series has not ended. As long as the penalty yardage has been correctly applied the number of the down is an error that could be fixed during that time frame.
  Generally speaking we are empowered to correct mistakes within a period of time during which they are correctable without unduly affecting either team. Clock errors can be fixed as long as the period has not ended, for example. Downs can be fixed as long as that series of downs has not ended. The fact that the down error arose due to a misapplication during penalty enforcement does not change the fact that this is a down numbering issue. There is still a period of time to repair the problem.
  I do understand that not fixing the down number immediately can cause issues as far as play calling. However, that is a factor in replay games as well so it seems RR's interp would be the same in either type of game. Of course, I may be presuming way too much 😊.

[TXMike]

Because 5-2-9 says "No rule decision may be changed after the ball is next legally
snapped, legally free-kicked or the second or fourth periods have ended". In both of the given scenarios, the ball had already been legally snapped before the attempted correction.

So what about this.....  2nd and 10, pass is incomplete, QB is seriously injured on the play.  There is a 20 minute delay while he is treated on the field and subsequently removed from the field.  Play resumes.  Crew sets up, chains are showing 2d and 10, and a play is run.  We go to 3d down but Team B coach goes nuts.  His statistician said 3 plays were already run. Crew discusses and agrees it should be 4th down.  Are you  saying we can’t change the down box to 4?

[Legacy Zebra]

In and of itself, I would have agreed with your interp of 5-2-9. However, given the very clear wording of 12-3-5-d

Why would the wording of 12-3-5-d (or anything from rule 12) have any bearing on a game without replay?

So what about this.....  2nd and 10, pass is incomplete, QB is seriously injured on the play.  There is a 20 minute delay while he is treated on the field and subsequently removed from the field.  Play resumes.  Crew sets up, chains are showing 2d and 10, and a play is run.  We go to 3d down but Team B coach goes nuts.  His statistician said 3 plays were already run. Crew discusses and agrees it should be 4th down.  Are you  saying we can’t change the down box to 4?

What rule decision is being changed here? You didn't penalize a loss of down or award an automatic first down. What's the difference between this situation and resetting the clock when you have positive knowledge that time erroneously ran off? That is correctable without replay so it seems like this would be too.

[TXMike]

Why would the wording of 12-3-5-d (or anything from rule 12) have any bearing on a game without replay?
 What rule decision is being changed here? You didn't penalize a loss of down or award an automatic first down. What's the difference between this situation and resetting the clock when you have positive knowledge that time erroneously ran off? That is correctable without replay so it seems like this would be too.

  Rule 12 gives us a good benchmark to use for inferring the intent of the rulemakers with regard to how things can be changed in the game.  The fact that IT must step in before the next snap in most situations but can step in anytime during the series with regard to down correction tells me they want more flexibility to be given to correcting downs.

Seems to me you are being overly technical in requiring strict adherence to the written language without considering the intent of the rule. 

[Morningrise]

As of 2015, Rule 5-2-9 now has an "Exception: The number of a down may be corrected any time within that series of downs or before the ball is legally next put in play after that series." Even in games without replay.

So now it's official, correct the down in both situations above.